JEP 477 Interacting with the Console

[Ethan McCue]

I still am not for importing java.base, for the reasons I think I talked to
death in that other thread.

I guess while we are on the topic, what is the rationale behind naming the
method println?

The current draft on github has println, print, and readln. But printing
isn't the inverse of reading - writing is the inverse of reading. I agree
that the metaphor of "printing to the screen" is used widely, but I don't
see why we would pick that given a blank slate.

Then also readln over readLine strikes me as a strange tradeoff. That's the
kind of thing that helps someone who already knows that "ln" is an
abbreviation for "line" write code - i.e. the group Cay identified as "authors
of small programs." For beginners it's one more non-obvious thing that
needs to be explained.

On Tue, Jul 16, 2024 at 12:43 PM <forax at univ-mlv.fr> wrote:

> ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Cay Horstmann" <cay at horstmann.com>
> > To: "Remi Forax" <forax at univ-mlv.fr>
> > Cc: "amber-dev" <amber-dev at openjdk.org>
> > Sent: Tuesday, July 16, 2024 9:15:30 AM
> > Subject: Re: JEP 477 Interacting with the Console
>
> > On 16/07/2024 08.41, Remi Forax wrote:
> >>> In general, the needs of beginners and authors of small programs are
> not the
> >>> same. The JEP bounces between the needs of the two. Implicit classes
> are useful
> >>> for both, but magic imports will add puzzlement for beginners.
> >>
> >> I disagree, this is only an issue if you talk about "import", seing
> println as a
> >> shorcut for IO.println is not a real problem.
> >>
> >> The notion of "import" in Java is tricky anyway especially because most
> of my
> >> students know Python so you need a full lesson about the difference
> between
> >> Java import and Python import,
> >> but that lesson can be taught in the second part of the semester when
> you need
> >> "package".
> >>
> >
> > Hi Rémi,
> >
> > I agree that not having to talk about imports right away is a win. I am
> all for
> > importing java.base.
> >
> > I am not sure I get your point about shortcuts, though. I wouldn't want
> to talk
> > about shortcuts any more than about imports. I would not want to discuss
> why
> > there is a println shortcut but not parseInt or pow.
>
> Shorcuts is not the right term, convenient is a better term.
> This is the word we use to explain "var" too.
>
> >
> > Really, how painful is IO.println? (If that's too long, call it IO.out.)
> And it
> > is consistent. IO.println. Integer.parseInt. Math.pow. Consistent is
> good for
> > beginners. If further brevity is desired, there is an existing
> > mechanism--static imports. Which can wait.
>
> I think this is perfectly fine to not use "println" but "IO.println"
> instead and mention later that it can be abbreviated to "println".
>
> >
> > The alternative is to go big, and to provide "shortcuts" for all beginner
> > methods. println, parseInt, pow. Consistent and not puzzling. But of
> course the
> > rub is, what are all beginner methods ?
>
> and the fact that all these names polute the scope.
>
> We have exercises where students rewrite simple functions like pow or
> parseInt, it would be sad if IO.parseInt is called instead of the method
> "parseint" defined by a student because the method call is written
> "parseInt(...)".
>
> >
> > Cheers,
> >
> > Cay
>
> regards,
> Rémi
>
> >
> > --
> >
> > Cay S. Horstmann | https://horstmann.com
>
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