From volker.simonis at gmail.com Mon Mar 1 15:19:32 2010 From: volker.simonis at gmail.com (Volker Simonis) Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2010 16:19:32 +0100 Subject: What's the future of OpenJDK? Message-ID: Dear Mark and Dalibor, now that Oracle completed the acquisition of Sun I think the time is ripe for an official statement about the future of the OpenJDK. This could greatly help to avoid rumors like about OpenSolaris and give the developer community confidence in the future development of the OpenJDK. I have no doubt that in the short term (i.e. until the release of Java 7) there will be no fundamental changes. But what will be after the release of Java 7? Mark, you have predicted in your webcast (https://channelsun.sun.com/media/show/15028) that you'll expect that the HotSpot and JRockit VM will be merged in a time frame of one-and-a-half to two years. What does this mean for the HotSpot in OpenJDK? I doubt that this "merge" will take place in an open source version. Does this merge mean that the HotSpot VM in the OpenJDK will be abandoned in the long term? And Dalibor, what about the whole OpenJDK Community Process. There is no Governance Board since May 2009. What are the plans here? The SCA still reads "Sun" Contributor Agreement. Is this still valid? Are the old contributor agreements which have been submitted to Sun still valid? I would be grateful for any clarifications, insights and outlooks. Thank you, Volker From mlists at juma.me.uk Mon Mar 1 23:28:40 2010 From: mlists at juma.me.uk (Ismael Juma) Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2010 23:28:40 +0000 (UTC) Subject: What's the future of OpenJDK? References: Message-ID: Volker Simonis writes: > I doubt that this "merge" will take place in an open source > version. Why do you doubt this? For what is worth: "OpenJDK will remain the single open source Java and JVM implementation that Oracle contributes to. Open sourcing the current JRockit code base simply does not make sense. Better focus our efforts on the future unified offering which will be a merge of some kind between the two technologies. Another thing worth mentioning here is that some features in JRockit do not make sense as part of an open source JVM. One example is integration with the Fusion Middleware logging infrastructure - definitely not of interest outside of an Oracle context. The open source codebase should not be polluted by such proprietary extensions. I don't have an answer to how to accomplish this yet, but it's possible that the modularity work in JDK7 can help." http://www.theserverside.com/news/thread.tss?thread_id=59317#332147 Ismael From mark at klomp.org Tue Mar 2 09:50:57 2010 From: mark at klomp.org (Mark Wielaard) Date: Tue, 02 Mar 2010 10:50:57 +0100 Subject: What's the future of OpenJDK? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1267523457.3392.12.camel@springer.wildebeest.org> Hi Volker, On Mon, 2010-03-01 at 16:19 +0100, Volker Simonis wrote: > now that Oracle completed the acquisition of Sun I think the time is > ripe for an official statement about the future of the OpenJDK. The future is what we make of it. Yes, it would be nice if Sun/Oracle could reaffirm their commitment to working with the community (I am looking forward to Mark and Dalibor doing just that). No doubt we have to step up if they decide not to participate anymore. But it doesn't look like they are retreating at this time. And in the end it is all the individual contributors that make the difference. Luckily we aren't dependent on just one company to push libre java forward. Lots of different people work on the code bases. Either directly, through friendly forks and downstream distributions. Go and participate. Endorse and promote individuals, organizations and companies that contribute and encourage working together. It really is that simple. All the code is free software (or has free replacements through IcedTea) and we together can shape its future. Cheers, Mark From volker.simonis at gmail.com Tue Mar 2 13:26:49 2010 From: volker.simonis at gmail.com (Volker Simonis) Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2010 14:26:49 +0100 Subject: What's the future of OpenJDK? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Mar 2, 2010 at 12:28 AM, Ismael Juma wrote: > Volker Simonis writes: >> I doubt that this "merge" will take place in an open source >> version. > > Why do you doubt this? For what is worth: > > "OpenJDK will remain the single open source Java and JVM implementation that > Oracle contributes to. This only means they will not open source anything more and makes no commitment at all about the future amount of contributions! > Open sourcing the current JRockit code base simply does > not make sense. Better focus our efforts on the future unified offering which > will be a merge of some kind between the two technologies. > > Another thing worth mentioning here is that some features in JRockit do not make > sense as part of an open source JVM. One example is integration with the Fusion > Middleware logging infrastructure - definitely not of interest outside of an > Oracle context. The open source codebase should not be polluted by such > proprietary extensions. I don't have an answer to how to accomplish this yet, > but it's possible that the modularity work in JDK7 can help." > > http://www.theserverside.com/news/thread.tss?thread_id=59317#332147 > But these are exatly my fears! They say: " Open sourcing the current JRockit code base simply does not make sense" and "The open source codebase should not be polluted by such proprietary extensions". Mark told in his webcast that he specially likes features like the garbage collector and "Mission Control" of JRockit on the one side and the C2 JIT of the HotSpot on the other side. Now imagine how these features can be "merged"? I suppose this will (and can only) happen in a closed version (remember how long it took to inspect and clean the HotSpot code for open sourcing?). And once the former Sun engineers will work on this closed version, the HotSpot source code will begin to rot. It took a really long time for Sun to open up its development model and it's really nice now to follow the development live in the newsgroups and repositories. It would be sad, if we would loose this again! And remember that I'm mainly reasoning about the HotSpot VM here. I think all this will not be that much of a problem for the Java API libraries. I can imagine very well that the OpenJDK libraries will remain the reference implementation which will be used by the HotSpot, JRockit and the new, merged VM together. I can only agree with Mark Wielaard and his call to "Endorse and promote individuals, organizations and companies to contribute and encourage them to work together", although I think this will be a lot harder for the HotSpot VM case than for the J2SE libraries. Regards, Volker > Ismael > > From frans at meruvian.org Tue Mar 2 13:27:52 2010 From: frans at meruvian.org (Frans Thamura) Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2010 20:27:52 +0700 Subject: What's the future of OpenJDK? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3a71add71003020527w410f115ft9196fb31a9ca6f8a@mail.gmail.com> what happen if oracle did a progress that we dont like can the java fork movement can sustain? f From mark at klomp.org Tue Mar 2 14:08:56 2010 From: mark at klomp.org (Mark Wielaard) Date: Tue, 02 Mar 2010 15:08:56 +0100 Subject: What's the future of OpenJDK? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1267538936.3392.40.camel@springer.wildebeest.org> On Tue, 2010-03-02 at 14:26 +0100, Volker Simonis wrote: > I can only agree with Mark Wielaard and his call to "Endorse and > promote individuals, organizations and > companies to contribute and encourage them to work together", although > I think this will be a lot harder for the HotSpot VM case than for the > J2SE libraries. That is funny because I think it is the other way around actually. Although technically challenging, in the end HotSpot is "just" a VM for which there are pretty tightly defined constraints on how it should work. We know how to replace it completely. See the Cacao integration in IcedTea. And we have people hacking on significant projects like Zero and Shark which replace huge chunks of it. The core class libraries on the other hand are much more fuzzy, don't have a very strict spec, and are mainly defined by current behavior of the openjdk implementation. Changing anything here quickly runs into either hard to judge "compatibility" discussions or politics over how/when to extend the public api. Both of which are pretty much impossible to test independently since the testsuite is basically "all the programs ever written out there" which depend on all kinds of weird quirks of the current implementation (we had to work pretty hard to be bug compatible in GNU Classpath). So from my perspective hacking on the VM is much easier since there are already so many people out there who have hacked on various parts and pieces that show that things will just work. While replacing parts of the core class libraries has much higher risks of breaking stuff out there. Cheers, Mark From mlists at juma.me.uk Tue Mar 2 14:15:50 2010 From: mlists at juma.me.uk (Ismael Juma) Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2010 14:15:50 +0000 (UTC) Subject: What's the future of OpenJDK? References: Message-ID: Hi Volker, Volker Simonis writes: > This only means they will not open source anything more and makes no > commitment at all about the future amount of contributions! OK, so you want them to outline the amount of contributions? Is that what you expect of all vendors or is it just Oracle? I do not work for Oracle, so I will not pretend to know what they intend to do. However, everything I've read so far seems to show that Oracle does not believe that the base platform is the place to make things proprietary. They even said that they don't need to make money on the base platform because they make money on things that depend on the base platform. Based on your reply, it seems to me that you're taking a lawyer-like approach to interpreting their statements, and it's not hard to create doomsday scenarios with that approach. More below. > But these are exatly my fears! They say: " Open sourcing the current > JRockit code base simply does not make sense" and "The open source > codebase should not be polluted by such proprietary extensions". Mark > told in his webcast that he specially likes features like the garbage > collector and "Mission Control" of JRockit on the one side and the C2 > JIT of the HotSpot on the other side. > > Now imagine how these features can be "merged"? I suppose this will > (and can only) happen in a closed version That is one way to look at it (the pessimistic/paranoid one). Another way is that new code would have to be written so that these things work with HotSpot and it's much easier to do it in the open from the start (or with the knowledge that it's meant to FOSS). Although the word "merge" has been used, I think that this is more of a conceptual thing than what will happen in practice. Sure, code will be reused, but I'd be amazed if they didn't have to write substantial amounts of new code. > (remember how long it took > to inspect and clean the HotSpot code for open sourcing?). Actually the HotSpot code was the first to be open-sourced. The libraries took a lot longer. Having said all that, if Oracle is wiling to make official and specific commitments to OpenJDK, that would not be a bad thing. I am not particularly concerned that they haven't though. Time will tell if I am right or wrong. ;) Best, Ismael From gnu_andrew at member.fsf.org Tue Mar 2 14:19:13 2010 From: gnu_andrew at member.fsf.org (Andrew John Hughes) Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2010 14:19:13 +0000 Subject: What's the future of OpenJDK? In-Reply-To: <1267538936.3392.40.camel@springer.wildebeest.org> References: <1267538936.3392.40.camel@springer.wildebeest.org> Message-ID: <17c6771e1003020619x4d9b8f96qc2e6e9389b1d2d34@mail.gmail.com> On 2 March 2010 14:08, Mark Wielaard wrote: > On Tue, 2010-03-02 at 14:26 +0100, Volker Simonis wrote: >> I can only agree with Mark Wielaard and his call to "Endorse and >> promote individuals, organizations and >> companies to contribute and encourage them to work together", although >> I think this will be a lot harder for the HotSpot VM case than for the >> J2SE libraries. > > That is funny because I think it is the other way around actually. > Although technically challenging, in the end HotSpot is "just" a VM for > which there are pretty tightly defined constraints on how it should > work. We know how to replace it completely. See the Cacao integration in > IcedTea. And we have people hacking on significant projects like Zero > and Shark which replace huge chunks of it. > There's a big difference between a working VM and a highly performant VM. It's one thing to keep the VM building and running with the current class libraries, and quite another to add new optimisations, improved garbage collection, etc. If the GPLed HotSpot was to be abandoned by Oracle (which is jumping the gun a bit as we don't really know anything yet), one would hope that their absence may lead to increased interest from other parties, but it wouldn't be possible to do anything but basic maintenance on HotSpot with the current tiny OpenJDK community. > The core class libraries on the other hand are much more fuzzy, don't > have a very strict spec, and are mainly defined by current behavior of > the openjdk implementation. Changing anything here quickly runs into > either hard to judge "compatibility" discussions or politics over > how/when to extend the public api. Both of which are pretty much > impossible to test independently since the testsuite is basically "all > the programs ever written out there" which depend on all kinds of weird > quirks of the current implementation (we had to work pretty hard to be > bug compatible in GNU Classpath). > I agree the class libraries are even worse; without even bringing in GNU Classpath, there have been numerous divergences between OpenJDK and the proprietary Sun JDK. > So from my perspective hacking on the VM is much easier since there are > already so many people out there who have hacked on various parts and > pieces that show that things will just work. While replacing parts of > the core class libraries has much higher risks of breaking stuff out > there. > > Cheers, > > Mark > > -- Andrew :-) Free Java Software Engineer Red Hat, Inc. (http://www.redhat.com) Support Free Java! Contribute to GNU Classpath and the OpenJDK http://www.gnu.org/software/classpath http://openjdk.java.net PGP Key: 94EFD9D8 (http://subkeys.pgp.net) Fingerprint: F8EF F1EA 401E 2E60 15FA 7927 142C 2591 94EF D9D8 From neugens at limasoftware.net Tue Mar 2 14:26:46 2010 From: neugens at limasoftware.net (Mario Torre) Date: Tue, 02 Mar 2010 15:26:46 +0100 Subject: What's the future of OpenJDK? In-Reply-To: <1267538936.3392.40.camel@springer.wildebeest.org> References: <1267538936.3392.40.camel@springer.wildebeest.org> Message-ID: <1267540006.2269.16.camel@localhost> Il giorno mar, 02/03/2010 alle 15.08 +0100, Mark Wielaard ha scritto: > On Tue, 2010-03-02 at 14:26 +0100, Volker Simonis wrote: > > I can only agree with Mark Wielaard and his call to "Endorse and > > promote individuals, organizations and > > companies to contribute and encourage them to work together", although > > I think this will be a lot harder for the HotSpot VM case than for the > > J2SE libraries. > So from my perspective hacking on the VM is much easier since there are > already so many people out there who have hacked on various parts and > pieces that show that things will just work. While replacing parts of > the core class libraries has much higher risks of breaking stuff out > there. This is surely true, but Hotspot is one of the best VMs out there, would be sad to enter in a "forever-bugfix-only" version, in case development goes on the closed side. Btw, referring to your previous post (starting from "The future is what we make of it" and quoting all of it), Mark, you're definitely one of the best Poets of the Free Software Generation :) I would like to see some feedback from Sun/Oracle, there hasn't been much so far, not even at Fosdem, looks like all the band stays hidden waiting for some signal that they are free to speak, that's my impression of course, but so far nobody has really said a single word... Come on, guys, we still need you :) Cheers, Mario From arshad3m at gmail.com Fri Mar 5 16:25:20 2010 From: arshad3m at gmail.com (arshad) Date: Fri, 05 Mar 2010 21:55:20 +0530 Subject: Is there any technique for image tagging like in face book? Message-ID: <1267806320.3427.0.camel@arshad-desktop> Is there any technique for image tagging like in face book? either in java or in other languages. thank you for your helps... From frans at meruvian.org Wed Mar 17 22:07:44 2010 From: frans at meruvian.org (Frans Thamura) Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 05:07:44 +0700 Subject: JDK @ Cloud Message-ID: <3a71add71003171507m283698efsa04997d6b70942b6@mail.gmail.com> hi all any thing can share to me about OpenJDK or JDK on cloud -- Frans Thamura Meruvian. Experiential Tempation of Java and Enterprise OpenSource Meruvian jTechnopreneur Program (S1) telah hadir, Dapatkan benefit bagi SMK yang melakukan mapping SKKD, dg program beasiswa dari Gunadarma Mobile: +6287885901958 Blog & Profile: http://frans.thamura.info We provide services to migrate your apps to Java (web), in amazing fast and reliable.