From dalibor.topic at oracle.com Wed Nov 1 12:02:34 2017 From: dalibor.topic at oracle.com (dalibor topic) Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2017 13:02:34 +0100 Subject: CFV: New Project: Loom In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Vote: Yes. -- Dalibor Topic | Principal Product Manager Phone: +494089091214 | Mobile: +491737185961 ORACLE Deutschland B.V. & Co. KG | K?hneh?fe 5 | 22761 Hamburg ORACLE Deutschland B.V. & Co. KG Hauptverwaltung: Riesstr. 25, D-80992 M?nchen Registergericht: Amtsgericht M?nchen, HRA 95603 Komplement?rin: ORACLE Deutschland Verwaltung B.V. Hertogswetering 163/167, 3543 AS Utrecht, Niederlande Handelsregister der Handelskammer Midden-Niederlande, Nr. 30143697 Gesch?ftsf?hrer: Alexander van der Ven, Jan Schultheiss, Val Maher Oracle is committed to developing practices and products that help protect the environment From maurizio.cimadamore at oracle.com Wed Nov 1 12:03:41 2017 From: maurizio.cimadamore at oracle.com (Maurizio Cimadamore) Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2017 12:03:41 +0000 Subject: CFV: New Project: Loom In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Vote: yes Maurizio On 27/10/17 20:28, Ron Pressler wrote: > I hereby propose the creation of Project Loom with myself as the Lead and the > HotSpot Group as the sponsoring Group. > > In accordance with the OpenJDK guidelines [1], this project will provide a > venue to explore and incubate Java VM features and APIs built on top of them > for the implementation of lightweight user-mode threads (fibers), delimited > continuations (of some form), and related features, such as explicit > tail-call [2]. > > The initial Reviewers and Committers will be: > > * John Rose > * Karen Kinnear > * Alan Bateman > * Brian Goetz > * Mark Reinhold > * Ron Pressler > * Paul Sandoz > * Frederic Parain > * Erik Duveblad > * Vladimir Ivanov > > The initial source of this project will be a clone of a JDK 10 repository. > Changes from the JDK 10 parent will be synced into Loom periodically. Similar > to Project Valhalla, we will follow a "commit first, review later" policy, as > code will not flow directly from the Loom repositories into the JDK > repositories, but instead will be done by a "curated merge" where select > changes are extracted into new changesets for incorporation into JDK > repositories when they are ready for inclusion. > > Votes are due by by the end of November 10, 2017 (UTC). > > Only current OpenJDK Members [3] are eligible to vote on this > motion. Votes must be cast in the open on the discuss list. > Replying to this message is sufficient if your mail program > honors the Reply-To header. > > For Lazy Consensus voting instructions, see [4]. > > Ron Pressler > > [1] http://openjdk.java.net/projects/#new-project > [2] http://cr.openjdk.java.net/~rpressler/loom/Loom-Proposal.html > [3] http://openjdk.java.net/census#members > [4] http://openjdk.java.net/projects/#new-project-vote > > From iris.clark at oracle.com Wed Nov 1 17:58:13 2017 From: iris.clark at oracle.com (Iris Clark) Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2017 10:58:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: CFV: New Project: Loom In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Vote: yes iris From augustnagro at gmail.com Fri Nov 3 20:30:00 2017 From: augustnagro at gmail.com (August Nagro) Date: Fri, 03 Nov 2017 20:30:00 +0000 Subject: Is Java WebStart Deprecated? Message-ID: The Java 9 Release Notes [1] include: "Java Deployment Technologies are deprecated and will be removed in a future release. Java Applet and WebStart functionality, including the Applet API, The Java plug-in, the Java Applet Viewer, JNLP and Java Web Start including the javaws tool are all deprecated in JDK 9 and will be removed in a future release." The bell has been ringing for Applets for some time, but I am surprised by the inclusion of Java WebStart / JNLP. The technology is the recommended migration path from applets [2], and provides some really enabling features like os-agnostics shortcuts, icons, and the ability to auto-update in the background. The `appletlauncher` executable has a clear deprecation warning in Java 9, but `javaws` has no such notice, leading me to believe there may be an error. In any case, Java Web Start is a mature, useful technology that has undoubtedly received large investment over the years. It's sudden removal would be quite disappointing. Regards, August Nagro [1]: http://www.oracle.com/technetwork/java/javase/9-deprecated-features-3745636.html [2]: http://openjdk.java.net/jeps/289 From adsun701 at gmail.com Sat Nov 4 19:53:20 2017 From: adsun701 at gmail.com (Andrew Sun) Date: Sat, 4 Nov 2017 15:53:20 -0400 Subject: Support building OpenJDK on Windows using MSYS2 and MinGW-w64 GCC? Message-ID: Hi everyone, I'm just wondering if OpenJDK could be modified to build on Windows using MSYS2 (free Windows development environment that includes MinGW-w64 and GCC). Currently MSYS2's MinGW-w64 toolchain (including GCC) is unsupported for building OpenJDK, and Visual Studio is required; however, on Linux, GCC is supported. Would there be any implications to such a method? If not, I would be very pleased. MSYS2 uses PKGBUILDs similar to the ones on Arch Linux. Adding a MinGW-w64 PKGBUILD for mingw-w64-jdk*version*-openjdk would be very beneficial to the MSYS2 project. Andrew Sun From philip.race at oracle.com Sat Nov 4 23:18:10 2017 From: philip.race at oracle.com (Philip Race) Date: Sat, 04 Nov 2017 16:18:10 -0700 Subject: Support building OpenJDK on Windows using MSYS2 and MinGW-w64 GCC? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <59FE4AB2.8070007@oracle.com> You should raise this on build-dev .. not discuss. -phil. On 11/4/17, 12:53 PM, Andrew Sun wrote: > Hi everyone, > > I'm just wondering if OpenJDK could be modified to build on Windows using > MSYS2 (free Windows development environment that includes MinGW-w64 and > GCC). Currently MSYS2's MinGW-w64 toolchain (including GCC) is unsupported > for building OpenJDK, and Visual Studio is required; however, on Linux, GCC > is supported. > Would there be any implications to such a method? If not, I would be very > pleased. MSYS2 uses PKGBUILDs similar to the ones on Arch Linux. Adding a > MinGW-w64 PKGBUILD for mingw-w64-jdk*version*-openjdk would be very > beneficial to the MSYS2 project. > > Andrew Sun From donald.smith at oracle.com Sun Nov 5 20:40:39 2017 From: donald.smith at oracle.com (Donald smith) Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2017 15:40:39 -0500 Subject: Is Java WebStart Deprecated? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The release notes are accurate. As we noted early in September [1]: > As client application development continues to shift from the old ?plugin? world to modern deployment, the need for a standalone Java Runtime Environment (JRE) that is installed centrally, separately from Java applications has diminished. Using the ?jlink? tool introduced with JDK 9 will make it even easier for application developers to package and deploy dedicated runtimes rather than relying on a pre-installed system JRE. Oracle will begin transitioning from the standalone architecture later next year in what will be a multi-year effort. - Don [1] - https://blogs.oracle.com/java-platform-group/faster-and-easier-use-and-redistribution-of-java-se > On Nov 3, 2017, at 4:30 PM, August Nagro wrote: > > The Java 9 Release Notes [1] include: > > "Java Deployment Technologies are deprecated and will be removed in a > future release. Java Applet and WebStart functionality, including the > Applet API, The Java plug-in, the Java Applet Viewer, JNLP and Java Web > Start including the javaws tool are all deprecated in JDK 9 and will be > removed in a future release." > > The bell has been ringing for Applets for some time, but I am surprised by > the inclusion of Java WebStart / JNLP. The technology is the recommended > migration path from applets [2], and provides some really enabling features > like os-agnostics shortcuts, icons, and the ability to auto-update in the > background. > > The `appletlauncher` executable has a clear deprecation warning in Java 9, > but `javaws` has no such notice, leading me to believe there may be an > error. In any case, Java Web Start is a mature, useful technology that has > undoubtedly received large investment over the years. It's sudden removal > would be quite disappointing. > > Regards, > > August Nagro > > [1]: > http://www.oracle.com/technetwork/java/javase/9-deprecated-features-3745636.html > [2]: http://openjdk.java.net/jeps/289 From mp at jugs.org Sun Nov 5 21:27:34 2017 From: mp at jugs.org (Michael Paus) Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2017 22:27:34 +0100 Subject: Is Java WebStart Deprecated? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8b473b13-28e6-86b2-578d-54e58ffad830@jugs.org> This is no doubt a step in the right direction but I wonder why then the javapackager is broken since the release of Java 9 and nobody seems to care although this problem has been known for more than half a year now. See https://bugs.openjdk.java.net/browse/JDK-8179033 Am 05.11.17 um 21:40 schrieb Donald smith: > The release notes are accurate. > > As we noted early in September [1]: > >> As client application development continues to shift from the old ?plugin? world to modern deployment, the need for a standalone Java Runtime Environment (JRE) that is installed centrally, separately from Java applications has diminished. Using the ?jlink? tool introduced with JDK 9 will make it even easier for application developers to package and deploy dedicated runtimes rather than relying on a pre-installed system JRE. Oracle will begin transitioning from the standalone architecture later next year in what will be a multi-year effort. > > - Don > > [1] - https://blogs.oracle.com/java-platform-group/faster-and-easier-use-and-redistribution-of-java-se > > >> On Nov 3, 2017, at 4:30 PM, August Nagro wrote: >> >> The Java 9 Release Notes [1] include: >> >> "Java Deployment Technologies are deprecated and will be removed in a >> future release. Java Applet and WebStart functionality, including the >> Applet API, The Java plug-in, the Java Applet Viewer, JNLP and Java Web >> Start including the javaws tool are all deprecated in JDK 9 and will be >> removed in a future release." >> >> The bell has been ringing for Applets for some time, but I am surprised by >> the inclusion of Java WebStart / JNLP. The technology is the recommended >> migration path from applets [2], and provides some really enabling features >> like os-agnostics shortcuts, icons, and the ability to auto-update in the >> background. >> >> The `appletlauncher` executable has a clear deprecation warning in Java 9, >> but `javaws` has no such notice, leading me to believe there may be an >> error. In any case, Java Web Start is a mature, useful technology that has >> undoubtedly received large investment over the years. It's sudden removal >> would be quite disappointing. >> >> Regards, >> >> August Nagro >> >> [1]: >> http://www.oracle.com/technetwork/java/javase/9-deprecated-features-3745636.html >> [2]: http://openjdk.java.net/jeps/289 From Alan.Bateman at oracle.com Mon Nov 6 08:20:54 2017 From: Alan.Bateman at oracle.com (Alan Bateman) Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2017 08:20:54 +0000 Subject: Is Java WebStart Deprecated? In-Reply-To: <8b473b13-28e6-86b2-578d-54e58ffad830@jugs.org> References: <8b473b13-28e6-86b2-578d-54e58ffad830@jugs.org> Message-ID: <87995c7b-e868-69ce-9cd2-89f0dc777638@oracle.com> On 05/11/2017 21:27, Michael Paus wrote: > This is no doubt a step in the right direction but I wonder why then the > javapackager is broken since the release of Java 9 and nobody seems to > care > although this problem has been known for more than half a year now. > See https://bugs.openjdk.java.net/browse/JDK-8179033 The openjfx-dev list is the place to bring patches that for that issue. I see someone started a thread about this issue and a possible fix last month. -Alan From misterm at gmail.com Mon Nov 6 10:31:48 2017 From: misterm at gmail.com (Michael Nascimento) Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2017 08:31:48 -0200 Subject: Is Java WebStart Deprecated? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Donald, I've heard this argument before and it seems Oracle is not aware of why enterprises use Java WebStart. It has *nothing* to do with a central JRE, but actually with distributing and upgrading applications automatically without using installers and requiring admin privileges, especially in Windows environments. That's at least what I see here in Brazil in several companies I've consulted for and what people tell me after desktop-related talks. Saying this could be replaced with a jlink generated image or an installer is really ignoring how this is really dealt with by the Java community and even why Java was a good pick for those desktop applications - a WORA that doesn't require an installer with admin rights and auto-upgrade with a differential download protocol is the key factor for choosing JWS. And I see no replacement being provided by the JDK or even in the roadmap. Regards, Michael

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On Sun, Nov 5, 2017 at 6:40 PM, Donald smith wrote: > The release notes are accurate. > > As we noted early in September [1]: > >> As client application development continues to shift from the old ?plugin? world to modern deployment, the need for a standalone Java Runtime Environment (JRE) that is installed centrally, separately from Java applications has diminished. Using the ?jlink? tool introduced with JDK 9 will make it even easier for application developers to package and deploy dedicated runtimes rather than relying on a pre-installed system JRE. Oracle will begin transitioning from the standalone architecture later next year in what will be a multi-year effort. > > > - Don > > [1] - https://blogs.oracle.com/java-platform-group/faster-and-easier-use-and-redistribution-of-java-se > > >> On Nov 3, 2017, at 4:30 PM, August Nagro wrote: >> >> The Java 9 Release Notes [1] include: >> >> "Java Deployment Technologies are deprecated and will be removed in a >> future release. Java Applet and WebStart functionality, including the >> Applet API, The Java plug-in, the Java Applet Viewer, JNLP and Java Web >> Start including the javaws tool are all deprecated in JDK 9 and will be >> removed in a future release." >> >> The bell has been ringing for Applets for some time, but I am surprised by >> the inclusion of Java WebStart / JNLP. The technology is the recommended >> migration path from applets [2], and provides some really enabling features >> like os-agnostics shortcuts, icons, and the ability to auto-update in the >> background. >> >> The `appletlauncher` executable has a clear deprecation warning in Java 9, >> but `javaws` has no such notice, leading me to believe there may be an >> error. In any case, Java Web Start is a mature, useful technology that has >> undoubtedly received large investment over the years. It's sudden removal >> would be quite disappointing. >> >> Regards, >> >> August Nagro >> >> [1]: >> http://www.oracle.com/technetwork/java/javase/9-deprecated-features-3745636.html >> [2]: http://openjdk.java.net/jeps/289 From donald.smith at oracle.com Mon Nov 6 14:26:46 2017 From: donald.smith at oracle.com (Donald Smith) Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2017 09:26:46 -0500 Subject: Is Java WebStart Deprecated? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Michael, No doubt this was true, but the OSes have shifted hard and fast away from this model.? The "app store" model is now it.? macOS has been ratcheting this down hard for several years now.? MSFT -- even in the enterprise market -- has signaled this direction as well.? For sure we need to find options to support the legacy, but the future here is limited. ?- Don On 06/11/2017 5:31 AM, Michael Nascimento wrote: > Hi Donald, > > I've heard this argument before and it seems Oracle is not aware of > why enterprises use Java WebStart. It has *nothing* to do with a > central JRE, but actually with distributing and upgrading applications > automatically without using installers and requiring admin privileges, > especially in Windows environments. That's at least what I see here in > Brazil in several companies I've consulted for and what people tell me > after desktop-related talks. > > Saying this could be replaced with a jlink generated image or an > installer is really ignoring how this is really dealt with by the Java > community and even why Java was a good pick for those desktop > applications - a WORA that doesn't require an installer with admin > rights and auto-upgrade with a differential download protocol is the > key factor for choosing JWS. And I see no replacement being provided > by the JDK or even in the roadmap. > > Regards, > Michael > > On Sun, Nov 5, 2017 at 6:40 PM, Donald smith wrote: >> The release notes are accurate. >> >> As we noted early in September [1]: >> >>> As client application development continues to shift from the old ?plugin? world to modern deployment, the need for a standalone Java Runtime Environment (JRE) that is installed centrally, separately from Java applications has diminished. Using the ?jlink? tool introduced with JDK 9 will make it even easier for application developers to package and deploy dedicated runtimes rather than relying on a pre-installed system JRE. Oracle will begin transitioning from the standalone architecture later next year in what will be a multi-year effort. >> >> - Don >> >> [1] - https://blogs.oracle.com/java-platform-group/faster-and-easier-use-and-redistribution-of-java-se >> >> >>> On Nov 3, 2017, at 4:30 PM, August Nagro wrote: >>> >>> The Java 9 Release Notes [1] include: >>> >>> "Java Deployment Technologies are deprecated and will be removed in a >>> future release. Java Applet and WebStart functionality, including the >>> Applet API, The Java plug-in, the Java Applet Viewer, JNLP and Java Web >>> Start including the javaws tool are all deprecated in JDK 9 and will be >>> removed in a future release." >>> >>> The bell has been ringing for Applets for some time, but I am surprised by >>> the inclusion of Java WebStart / JNLP. The technology is the recommended >>> migration path from applets [2], and provides some really enabling features >>> like os-agnostics shortcuts, icons, and the ability to auto-update in the >>> background. >>> >>> The `appletlauncher` executable has a clear deprecation warning in Java 9, >>> but `javaws` has no such notice, leading me to believe there may be an >>> error. In any case, Java Web Start is a mature, useful technology that has >>> undoubtedly received large investment over the years. It's sudden removal >>> would be quite disappointing. >>> >>> Regards, >>> >>> August Nagro >>> >>> [1]: >>> http://www.oracle.com/technetwork/java/javase/9-deprecated-features-3745636.html >>> [2]: http://openjdk.java.net/jeps/289 From misterm at gmail.com Mon Nov 6 14:31:02 2017 From: misterm at gmail.com (Michael Nascimento) Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2017 12:31:02 -0200 Subject: Is Java WebStart Deprecated? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Donald, While I agree the "mental model" would be app stores, there is no direct Java support for such a thing and no "app store" for Linux in general, to make matters worse. Also nobody wants to distribute an internal application through a public app store. So this is not really a solution for most applications I see deployed out there using JWS. Regards, Michael On Mon, Nov 6, 2017 at 12:26 PM, Donald Smith wrote: > Hi Michael, > > No doubt this was true, but the OSes have shifted hard and fast away from > this model. The "app store" model is now it. macOS has been ratcheting > this down hard for several years now. MSFT -- even in the enterprise market > -- has signaled this direction as well. For sure we need to find options to > support the legacy, but the future here is limited. > > - Don > > > On 06/11/2017 5:31 AM, Michael Nascimento wrote: >> >> Hi Donald, >> >> I've heard this argument before and it seems Oracle is not aware of >> why enterprises use Java WebStart. It has *nothing* to do with a >> central JRE, but actually with distributing and upgrading applications >> automatically without using installers and requiring admin privileges, >> especially in Windows environments. That's at least what I see here in >> Brazil in several companies I've consulted for and what people tell me >> after desktop-related talks. >> >> Saying this could be replaced with a jlink generated image or an >> installer is really ignoring how this is really dealt with by the Java >> community and even why Java was a good pick for those desktop >> applications - a WORA that doesn't require an installer with admin >> rights and auto-upgrade with a differential download protocol is the >> key factor for choosing JWS. And I see no replacement being provided >> by the JDK or even in the roadmap. >> >> Regards, >> Michael >> >> On Sun, Nov 5, 2017 at 6:40 PM, Donald smith >> wrote: >>> >>> The release notes are accurate. >>> >>> As we noted early in September [1]: >>> >>>> As client application development continues to shift from the old >>>> ?plugin? world to modern deployment, the need for a standalone Java Runtime >>>> Environment (JRE) that is installed centrally, separately from Java >>>> applications has diminished. Using the ?jlink? tool introduced with JDK 9 >>>> will make it even easier for application developers to package and deploy >>>> dedicated runtimes rather than relying on a pre-installed system JRE. >>>> Oracle will begin transitioning from the standalone architecture later next >>>> year in what will be a multi-year effort. >>> >>> >>> - Don >>> >>> [1] - >>> https://blogs.oracle.com/java-platform-group/faster-and-easier-use-and-redistribution-of-java-se >>> >>> >>>> On Nov 3, 2017, at 4:30 PM, August Nagro wrote: >>>> >>>> The Java 9 Release Notes [1] include: >>>> >>>> "Java Deployment Technologies are deprecated and will be removed in a >>>> future release. Java Applet and WebStart functionality, including the >>>> Applet API, The Java plug-in, the Java Applet Viewer, JNLP and Java Web >>>> Start including the javaws tool are all deprecated in JDK 9 and will be >>>> removed in a future release." >>>> >>>> The bell has been ringing for Applets for some time, but I am surprised >>>> by >>>> the inclusion of Java WebStart / JNLP. The technology is the recommended >>>> migration path from applets [2], and provides some really enabling >>>> features >>>> like os-agnostics shortcuts, icons, and the ability to auto-update in >>>> the >>>> background. >>>> >>>> The `appletlauncher` executable has a clear deprecation warning in Java >>>> 9, >>>> but `javaws` has no such notice, leading me to believe there may be an >>>> error. In any case, Java Web Start is a mature, useful technology that >>>> has >>>> undoubtedly received large investment over the years. It's sudden >>>> removal >>>> would be quite disappointing. >>>> >>>> Regards, >>>> >>>> August Nagro >>>> >>>> [1]: >>>> >>>> http://www.oracle.com/technetwork/java/javase/9-deprecated-features-3745636.html >>>> [2]: http://openjdk.java.net/jeps/289 > > From neugens at redhat.com Mon Nov 6 15:00:12 2017 From: neugens at redhat.com (Mario Torre) Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2017 16:00:12 +0100 Subject: Is Java WebStart Deprecated? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Nov 6, 2017 at 3:31 PM, Michael Nascimento wrote: > Hi Donald, > > While I agree the "mental model" would be app stores, there is no > direct Java support for such a thing and no "app store" for Linux in > general, to make matters worse. Also nobody wants to distribute an > internal application through a public app store. So this is not really > a solution for most applications I see deployed out there using JWS. Each distributions have their own app store already, in fact they had before App Store was even coined as a word. If you target one specific OS in your company is pretty easy to create, for example, an rpm and have a global configured repository that can be managed like any other across your organisation, and doesn't have to be accessible externally, it's very well suited for secure deployments of software. Also, while I didn't follow the whole discussion about its proposal, I believe the future jpackager API will make it easier to create distribution specific packages for a variety of targets. Flatpacks and similar methods are also gaining leverage. I think we should have separated deployment strategies from the java platform many years ago, it's good we're doing that now at last. Cheers, Mario From misterm at gmail.com Mon Nov 6 15:41:54 2017 From: misterm at gmail.com (Michael Nascimento) Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2017 13:41:54 -0200 Subject: Is Java WebStart Deprecated? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Nov 6, 2017 at 1:00 PM, Mario Torre wrote: > Each distributions have their own app store already, in fact they had > before App Store was even coined as a word. If you target one specific > OS in your company is pretty easy to create, for example, an rpm and > have a global configured repository that can be managed like any other > across your organisation, and doesn't have to be accessible > externally, it's very well suited for secure deployments of software. Except that for many enterprises, including a customer I worked for 7 years, you had to support pretty much any OS. Only 150 out of 300 "core" users (that had standard hardware/OS, the rest was BYOL over the VPN. > Also, while I didn't follow the whole discussion about its proposal, I > believe the future jpackager API will make it easier to create > distribution specific packages for a variety of targets. Flatpacks and > similar methods are also gaining leverage. I think we should have > separated deployment strategies from the java platform many years ago, > it's good we're doing that now at last. Updating with a differential download is a pretty neat feature of JWS. We had users at the Amazon forest area (yeah, this is enterprise software, they were independent sales representatives) and having a 20 MB application requiring just a 30-400kb upgrade at most was (and still is) a crucial reason for embracing JWS. Regards, Michael

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From tanderson at openvpms.org Mon Nov 6 23:32:31 2017 From: tanderson at openvpms.org (Tim Anderson) Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2017 10:32:31 +1100 Subject: Is Java WebStart Deprecated? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6d166be6-e4ec-9634-d015-24776be848ce@openvpms.org> WebStart isn't just used for distributing and updating packages. It is also used for providing a link between web application and desktop clients. E.g., Weasis , is a desktop application that allows users to view DICOM images hosted in DCM4CHEE. A user clicks on an image link and WebStart is used to launch Weasis on the desktop to view and manipulate the image. In our case,? our web application hosts patient documents in OpenOffice and Word format. These can be edited via WebDAV. Users can click an edit button within the app which triggers a WebStart app to launch OpenOffice to edit a document. The "app store" model doesn't help in either of the situations. It would be disappointing if WebStart was deprecated, as it would make this kind of functionality harder to support. In particular, it would require users to perform additional steps to install the desktop clients. Presumably the desktop clients would also need to set up their own file associations to trigger launching. -Tim On 7/11/2017 1:26 AM, Donald Smith wrote: > Hi Michael, > > No doubt this was true, but the OSes have shifted hard and fast away > from this model.? The "app store" model is now it.? macOS has been > ratcheting this down hard for several years now.? MSFT -- even in the > enterprise market -- has signaled this direction as well.? For sure we > need to find options to support the legacy, but the future here is > limited. > > ?- Don > > On 06/11/2017 5:31 AM, Michael Nascimento wrote: >> Hi Donald, >> >> I've heard this argument before and it seems Oracle is not aware of >> why enterprises use Java WebStart. It has *nothing* to do with a >> central JRE, but actually with distributing and upgrading applications >> automatically without using installers and requiring admin privileges, >> especially in Windows environments. That's at least what I see here in >> Brazil in several companies I've consulted for and what people tell me >> after desktop-related talks. >> >> Saying this could be replaced with a jlink generated image or an >> installer is really ignoring how this is really dealt with by the Java >> community and even why Java was a good pick for those desktop >> applications - a WORA that doesn't require an installer with admin >> rights and auto-upgrade with a differential download protocol is the >> key factor for choosing JWS. And I see no replacement being provided >> by the JDK or even in the roadmap. >> >> Regards, >> Michael >> >> On Sun, Nov 5, 2017 at 6:40 PM, Donald smith >> wrote: >>> The release notes are accurate. >>> >>> As we noted early in September [1]: >>> >>>> As client application development continues to shift from the old >>>> ?plugin? world to modern deployment, the need for a standalone Java >>>> Runtime Environment (JRE) that is installed centrally, separately >>>> from Java applications has diminished.? Using the ?jlink? tool >>>> introduced with JDK 9 will make it even easier for application >>>> developers to package and deploy dedicated runtimes rather than >>>> relying on a pre-installed system JRE. Oracle will begin >>>> transitioning from the standalone architecture later next year in >>>> what will be a multi-year effort. >>> >>> ? - Don >>> >>> [1] - >>> https://blogs.oracle.com/java-platform-group/faster-and-easier-use-and-redistribution-of-java-se >>> >>> >>>> On Nov 3, 2017, at 4:30 PM, August Nagro >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> The Java 9 Release Notes [1] include: >>>> >>>> "Java Deployment Technologies are deprecated and will be removed in a >>>> future release. Java Applet and WebStart functionality, including the >>>> Applet API, The Java plug-in, the Java Applet Viewer, JNLP and Java >>>> Web >>>> Start including the javaws tool are all deprecated in JDK 9 and >>>> will be >>>> removed in a future release." >>>> >>>> The bell has been ringing for Applets for some time, but I am >>>> surprised by >>>> the inclusion of Java WebStart / JNLP. The technology is the >>>> recommended >>>> migration path from applets [2], and provides some really enabling >>>> features >>>> like os-agnostics shortcuts, icons, and the ability to auto-update >>>> in the >>>> background. >>>> >>>> The `appletlauncher` executable has a clear deprecation warning in >>>> Java 9, >>>> but `javaws` has no such notice, leading me to believe there may be an >>>> error. In any case, Java Web Start is a mature, useful technology >>>> that has >>>> undoubtedly received large investment over the years. It's sudden >>>> removal >>>> would be quite disappointing. >>>> >>>> Regards, >>>> >>>> August Nagro >>>> >>>> [1]: >>>> http://www.oracle.com/technetwork/java/javase/9-deprecated-features-3745636.html >>>> >>>> [2]: http://openjdk.java.net/jeps/289 > From augustnagro at gmail.com Tue Nov 7 02:52:51 2017 From: augustnagro at gmail.com (August Nagro) Date: Tue, 07 Nov 2017 02:52:51 +0000 Subject: Is Java WebStart Deprecated? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > If you target one specific OS in your company Even if this was always the case, why limit yourself? Java's motto is 'Write Once, Run Anywhere', after all. > I think we should have separated deployment strategies from the java platform If we really want separated deployment strategies we should deprecate the JAR format as well, since WebStart is in many ways its extension Consider the difficulties of distributing client applications as standalone executables: - Need to build N times, and have the hardware to do so. - Have to codesign and deploy each executable separately. - Updating the application means more engineering. - How does one launch with custom context from a browser? - Custom loading screens? - Shortcut installations? WebStart and JNLP solve all these problems in ~30 lines of xml. While the companies behind MineCraft and Intellij IDEA can afford the extra effort of OS-specific deployments, most individuals (and even medium sized teams) don't have the resources. For example, my high school calculus teacher wrote a beautiful integration-modeling Applet with Swing, which was eventually migrated to WebStart. I seriously doubt the tool would exist if it required OS-specific bundling. Instead the class would be sharing unversioned JAR files. This doesn't even take into account the valid use cases others have shared. And WebStart seems to be a popular deployment mechanism, considering it's mentioned on /r/Java every week. There are of course drawbacks to WebStart, such as: - Scattered documentation - Some platform-specific bugs - Mac shortcuts not integrated with Spotlight search or Applications Folder - Permissions dialogue is pretty ugly on Mac - Only really works on Oracle distribution - Startup time can be slow - Requires full JRE Installed - Security model is a pain - Why is code signing required even for applications that use even the most sandboxed setting? - Big maintenance burden on Oracle But with all the negatives considered, WebStart still has too much potential to deprecate and throw away. If the technology was brought to OpenJDK (like JMC and the other proprietary features) I suspect people will contribute. - August On Mon, Nov 6, 2017 at 9:43 AM Michael Nascimento wrote: > On Mon, Nov 6, 2017 at 1:00 PM, Mario Torre wrote: > > Each distributions have their own app store already, in fact they had > > before App Store was even coined as a word. If you target one specific > > OS in your company is pretty easy to create, for example, an rpm and > > have a global configured repository that can be managed like any other > > across your organisation, and doesn't have to be accessible > > externally, it's very well suited for secure deployments of software. > > Except that for many enterprises, including a customer I worked for 7 > years, you had to support pretty much any OS. Only 150 out of 300 > "core" users (that had standard hardware/OS, the rest was BYOL over > the VPN. > > > Also, while I didn't follow the whole discussion about its proposal, I > > believe the future jpackager API will make it easier to create > > distribution specific packages for a variety of targets. Flatpacks and > > similar methods are also gaining leverage. I think we should have > > separated deployment strategies from the java platform many years ago, > > it's good we're doing that now at last. > > Updating with a differential download is a pretty neat feature of JWS. > We had users at the Amazon forest area (yeah, this is enterprise > software, they were independent sales representatives) and having a 20 > MB application requiring just a 30-400kb upgrade at most was (and > still is) a crucial reason for embracing JWS. > > Regards, > Michael > From robert.zenz at sibvisions.com Tue Nov 7 08:52:22 2017 From: robert.zenz at sibvisions.com (Robert Zenz) Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2017 08:52:22 +0000 Subject: Is Java WebStart Deprecated? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5A017445.3080503@sibvisions.com> apt/yum/zypper/etc. are very, very good and can be used as alternative, but it would require that a command is run as root on *every* target machine. So this either must be automated (like remote calls over ssh), or the user is given root rights and the trust to do this (who would want that?). That seems rather tedious compared to the WebStart/JNLP mechanism (especially for rather fast moving applications), especially as such a solution would be bound to a specific OS/distribution. On 06.11.2017 16:00, Mario Torre wrote: > Each distributions have their own app store already, in fact they had > before App Store was even coined as a word. If you target one specific > OS in your company is pretty easy to create, for example, an rpm and > have a global configured repository that can be managed like any other > across your organisation, and doesn't have to be accessible > externally, it's very well suited for secure deployments of software. > > Also, while I didn't follow the whole discussion about its proposal, I > believe the future jpackager API will make it easier to create > distribution specific packages for a variety of targets. Flatpacks and > similar methods are also gaining leverage. I think we should have > separated deployment strategies from the java platform many years ago, > it's good we're doing that now at last. > > Cheers, > Mario From robert.zenz at sibvisions.com Tue Nov 7 09:25:26 2017 From: robert.zenz at sibvisions.com (Robert Zenz) Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2017 09:25:26 +0000 Subject: Is Java WebStart Deprecated? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5A017C05.8080208@sibvisions.com> I have a hard time parsing the information about jlink, so please excuse if that is a well answered question. From what I can gather, jlink does create native launchers (which means that the application and the JRE are packaged and can be "simply" started on the target machine without a prior installed JRE), is that correct? If yes, I'm not seeing an option in the jlink documentation to "cross-compile" for another OS, did I miss something there? On 05.11.2017 21:40, Donald smith wrote: > The release notes are accurate. > > As we noted early in September [1]: > >> As client application development continues to shift from the old ?plugin? world to modern deployment, the need for a standalone Java Runtime Environment (JRE) that is installed centrally, separately from Java applications has diminished. Using the ?jlink? tool introduced with JDK 9 will make it even easier for application developers to package and deploy dedicated runtimes rather than relying on a pre-installed system JRE. Oracle will begin transitioning from the standalone architecture later next year in what will be a multi-year effort. > > > - Don > > [1] - https://blogs.oracle.com/java-platform-group/faster-and-easier-use-and-redistribution-of-java-se > > >> On Nov 3, 2017, at 4:30 PM, August Nagro wrote: >> >> The Java 9 Release Notes [1] include: >> >> "Java Deployment Technologies are deprecated and will be removed in a >> future release. Java Applet and WebStart functionality, including the >> Applet API, The Java plug-in, the Java Applet Viewer, JNLP and Java Web >> Start including the javaws tool are all deprecated in JDK 9 and will be >> removed in a future release." >> >> The bell has been ringing for Applets for some time, but I am surprised by >> the inclusion of Java WebStart / JNLP. The technology is the recommended >> migration path from applets [2], and provides some really enabling features >> like os-agnostics shortcuts, icons, and the ability to auto-update in the >> background. >> >> The `appletlauncher` executable has a clear deprecation warning in Java 9, >> but `javaws` has no such notice, leading me to believe there may be an >> error. In any case, Java Web Start is a mature, useful technology that has >> undoubtedly received large investment over the years. It's sudden removal >> would be quite disappointing. >> >> Regards, >> >> August Nagro >> >> [1]: >> http://www.oracle.com/technetwork/java/javase/9-deprecated-features-3745636.html >> [2]: http://openjdk.java.net/jeps/289 From dalibor.topic at oracle.com Tue Nov 7 09:38:58 2017 From: dalibor.topic at oracle.com (dalibor topic) Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2017 10:38:58 +0100 Subject: Is Java WebStart Deprecated? In-Reply-To: <5A017C05.8080208@sibvisions.com> References: <5A017C05.8080208@sibvisions.com> Message-ID: On 07.11.2017 10:25, Robert Zenz wrote: > If yes, I'm not seeing an option in the jlink documentation to > "cross-compile" for another OS, did I miss something there? The jlink tool creates platform specific runtime images, i.e. it doesn't cross-compile them. cheers, dalibor topic -- Dalibor Topic | Principal Product Manager Phone: +494089091214 | Mobile: +491737185961 ORACLE Deutschland B.V. & Co. KG | K?hneh?fe 5 | 22761 Hamburg ORACLE Deutschland B.V. & Co. KG Hauptverwaltung: Riesstr. 25, D-80992 M?nchen Registergericht: Amtsgericht M?nchen, HRA 95603 Komplement?rin: ORACLE Deutschland Verwaltung B.V. Hertogswetering 163/167, 3543 AS Utrecht, Niederlande Handelsregister der Handelskammer Midden-Niederlande, Nr. 30143697 Gesch?ftsf?hrer: Alexander van der Ven, Jan Schultheiss, Val Maher Oracle is committed to developing practices and products that help protect the environment From robert.zenz at sibvisions.com Tue Nov 7 09:48:41 2017 From: robert.zenz at sibvisions.com (Robert Zenz) Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2017 09:48:41 +0000 Subject: Is Java WebStart Deprecated? In-Reply-To: References: <5A017C05.8080208@sibvisions.com> Message-ID: <5A018179.2080406@sibvisions.com> So, if you want to distribute such an image to Microsoft Windows, macOS and Linux clients you need all three OSs set up to create images for them? On 07.11.2017 10:38, dalibor topic wrote: > > > On 07.11.2017 10:25, Robert Zenz wrote: >> If yes, I'm not seeing an option in the jlink documentation to >> "cross-compile" for another OS, did I miss something there? > > The jlink tool creates platform specific runtime images, i.e. it doesn't > cross-compile them. > > cheers, > dalibor topic > From Alan.Bateman at oracle.com Tue Nov 7 10:09:36 2017 From: Alan.Bateman at oracle.com (Alan Bateman) Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2017 10:09:36 +0000 Subject: Is Java WebStart Deprecated? In-Reply-To: <5A018179.2080406@sibvisions.com> References: <5A017C05.8080208@sibvisions.com> <5A018179.2080406@sibvisions.com> Message-ID: On 07/11/2017 09:48, Robert Zenz wrote: > So, if you want to distribute such an image to Microsoft Windows, macOS and > Linux clients you need all three OSs set up to create images for them? > jlink does supports cross targeting, meaning you can run jlink on say macOS and create run-time for say windows-x64. There is limited testing of the combinations so please report any issues that you run into. One other thing is that the jlink plugins that do code generation at link time do not consistently check the version of the target platform. This is something that needs to be fixed. In the mean time, you need to make sure that the the packaged modules are the same version as jlink, e.g. you can't run jlink on a JDK 10 build to create a 9.0.1 run-time image and vice versa. -Alan. From Fabrizio.Giudici at tidalwave.it Tue Nov 7 10:26:15 2017 From: Fabrizio.Giudici at tidalwave.it (Fabrizio Giudici) Date: Tue, 07 Nov 2017 11:26:15 +0100 Subject: Is Java WebStart Deprecated? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 06 Nov 2017 15:26:46 +0100, Donald Smith wrote: > Hi Michael, > > No doubt this was true, but the OSes have shifted hard and fast away > from this model. The "app store" model is now it. macOS has been > ratcheting this down hard for several years now. MSFT -- even in the > enterprise market -- has signaled this direction as well. For sure we > need to find options to support the legacy, but the future here is > limited. The "app store" does make sense with a certain kind of users. But in some industrial environments I consult for, the "app store" model has no meaning. As Michael said, they use JNLP as a way to install and update some specific apps on clients. They have been hardly bothered by the escalation of security patches at the times of JDK 1.7.0, but in the end they managed it. When they will learn that all the work done to get the thing working will have to be thrown away, they'll get pretty angry. -- Fabrizio Giudici - Java Architect @ Tidalwave s.a.s. "We make Java work. Everywhere." http://tidalwave.it/fabrizio/blog - fabrizio.giudici at tidalwave.it From dalibor.topic at oracle.com Tue Nov 7 10:31:04 2017 From: dalibor.topic at oracle.com (dalibor topic) Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2017 11:31:04 +0100 Subject: Is Java WebStart Deprecated? In-Reply-To: <5A018179.2080406@sibvisions.com> References: <5A017C05.8080208@sibvisions.com> <5A018179.2080406@sibvisions.com> Message-ID: <8a880fc3-b2d7-18c3-8a63-31b9f54509fa@oracle.com> Well, given that OpenJDK 9 downloads are currently only available for Linux x86, the question is a bit moot. [0] While the Oracle JDK 9 download covers more platforms [1], you'd need to find a way to run/extract the various target platform installation packages on source platforms first, before you can start thinking about cross-linking. I suspect that's even less fun than it sounds in comparison to just using jlink natively. cheers, dalibor topic [0] http://jdk.java.net/9/ [1] http://www.oracle.com/technetwork/java/javase/downloads/jdk9-downloads-3848520.html On 07.11.2017 10:48, Robert Zenz wrote: > So, if you want to distribute such an image to Microsoft Windows, macOS and > Linux clients you need all three OSs set up to create images for them? > > > On 07.11.2017 10:38, dalibor topic wrote: >> >> >> On 07.11.2017 10:25, Robert Zenz wrote: >>> If yes, I'm not seeing an option in the jlink documentation to >>> "cross-compile" for another OS, did I miss something there? >> >> The jlink tool creates platform specific runtime images, i.e. it doesn't >> cross-compile them. >> >> cheers, >> dalibor topic -- Dalibor Topic | Principal Product Manager Phone: +494089091214 | Mobile: +491737185961 ORACLE Deutschland B.V. & Co. KG | K?hneh?fe 5 | 22761 Hamburg ORACLE Deutschland B.V. & Co. KG Hauptverwaltung: Riesstr. 25, D-80992 M?nchen Registergericht: Amtsgericht M?nchen, HRA 95603 Komplement?rin: ORACLE Deutschland Verwaltung B.V. Hertogswetering 163/167, 3543 AS Utrecht, Niederlande Handelsregister der Handelskammer Midden-Niederlande, Nr. 30143697 Gesch?ftsf?hrer: Alexander van der Ven, Jan Schultheiss, Val Maher Oracle is committed to developing practices and products that help protect the environment From robert.zenz at sibvisions.com Tue Nov 7 10:31:40 2017 From: robert.zenz at sibvisions.com (Robert Zenz) Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2017 10:31:40 +0000 Subject: Is Java WebStart Deprecated? In-Reply-To: References: <5A017C05.8080208@sibvisions.com> <5A018179.2080406@sibvisions.com> Message-ID: <5A018B8B.9000301@sibvisions.com> Ah, I see. This is done implicitly by specifying a different modulepath. To be exact, specifying the path to the modules of the target system. Thank you. I was looking for some information on it in the jlink documentation at https://docs.oracle.com/javase/9/tools/jlink.htm but couldn't find anything about it in there, so that is why I was confused. On 07.11.2017 11:09, Alan Bateman wrote: > On 07/11/2017 09:48, Robert Zenz wrote: >> So, if you want to distribute such an image to Microsoft Windows, macOS and >> Linux clients you need all three OSs set up to create images for them? >> > jlink does supports cross targeting, meaning you can run jlink on say macOS and > create run-time for say windows-x64. There is limited testing of the > combinations so please report any issues that you run into. > > One other thing is that the jlink plugins that do code generation at link time > do not consistently check the version of the target platform. This is something > that needs to be fixed. In the mean time, you need to make sure that the the > packaged modules are the same version as jlink, e.g. you can't run jlink on a > JDK 10 build to create a 9.0.1 run-time image and vice versa. > > -Alan. From fcassia at gmail.com Tue Nov 7 10:42:31 2017 From: fcassia at gmail.com (Fernando Cassia) Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2017 07:42:31 -0300 Subject: Is Java WebStart Deprecated? In-Reply-To: <5A017445.3080503@sibvisions.com> References: <5A017445.3080503@sibvisions.com> Message-ID: On 11/7/17, Robert Zenz wrote: > apt/yum/zypper/etc. are very, very good and can be used as alternative, but > it > would require that a command is run as root on *every* target machine. So > this > either must be automated (like remote calls over ssh), or the user is given > root > rights and the trust to do this (who would want that?). That seems rather > tedious compared to the WebStart/JNLP mechanism (especially for rather fast > moving applications), especially as such a solution would be bound to a > specific > OS/distribution. +1 for getting Java Web Start supported if not officially then as part of an OpenJDK subproject with community involvement. Call it OpenJDK browser launch or whatver you want. I know a few apps that use JWS and I use often. muCommander being one of them. The ability to just point at the site and launch the latest version without having to mind about updating a locally stored copy is one of the strengths of the JWS solution that no other approach can match. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MuCommander see also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Java_Web_Start#Notable_applications FC From akashche at redhat.com Tue Nov 7 12:16:37 2017 From: akashche at redhat.com (Alex Kashchenko) Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2017 12:16:37 +0000 Subject: Is Java WebStart Deprecated? In-Reply-To: <6d166be6-e4ec-9634-d015-24776be848ce@openvpms.org> References: <6d166be6-e4ec-9634-d015-24776be848ce@openvpms.org> Message-ID: <0be03a3c-abb6-08a3-1821-3456a49e1972@redhat.com> Hi, On 11/06/2017 11:32 PM, Tim Anderson wrote: > WebStart isn't just used for distributing and updating packages. It is > also used for providing a link between web application and desktop clients. > > E.g., Weasis , > is a desktop application that allows users to view DICOM images hosted > in DCM4CHEE. > A user clicks on an image link and WebStart is used to launch Weasis on > the desktop to view and manipulate the image. > > In our case,? our web application hosts patient documents in OpenOffice > and Word format. These can be edited via WebDAV. > Users can click an edit button within the app which triggers a WebStart > app to launch OpenOffice to edit a document. > > The "app store" model doesn't help in either of the situations. > > It would be disappointing if WebStart was deprecated, as it would make > this kind of functionality harder to support. There is an open-source WebStart implementation ( https://icedtea.classpath.org/wiki/IcedTea-Web ) that is shipped in RHEL. You can also try it on Windows - it is bundled with 8u151 installer from here ( https://developers.redhat.com/products/openjdk/download/ ). Samples from the DICOM link worked fine for me. It should not be too hard to implement a custom WebStart launcher for your application on top of IcedTea-Web. I think you can get away with pure java + script launchers (that will run JNLP files with "-Xbootclasspath/a:javaws.jar") for all platforms without using OS-specific native APIs. It may be better to use http://mail.openjdk.java.net/mailman/listinfo/distro-pkg-dev for questions about IcedTea-Web. > In particular, it would require users to perform additional steps to > install the desktop clients. > Presumably the desktop clients would also need to set up their own file > associations to trigger launching. > > -Tim > > On 7/11/2017 1:26 AM, Donald Smith wrote: >> Hi Michael, >> >> No doubt this was true, but the OSes have shifted hard and fast away >> from this model.? The "app store" model is now it.? macOS has been >> ratcheting this down hard for several years now.? MSFT -- even in the >> enterprise market -- has signaled this direction as well.? For sure we >> need to find options to support the legacy, but the future here is >> limited. >> >> ?- Don >> >> On 06/11/2017 5:31 AM, Michael Nascimento wrote: >>> Hi Donald, >>> >>> I've heard this argument before and it seems Oracle is not aware of >>> why enterprises use Java WebStart. It has *nothing* to do with a >>> central JRE, but actually with distributing and upgrading applications >>> automatically without using installers and requiring admin privileges, >>> especially in Windows environments. That's at least what I see here in >>> Brazil in several companies I've consulted for and what people tell me >>> after desktop-related talks. >>> >>> Saying this could be replaced with a jlink generated image or an >>> installer is really ignoring how this is really dealt with by the Java >>> community and even why Java was a good pick for those desktop >>> applications - a WORA that doesn't require an installer with admin >>> rights and auto-upgrade with a differential download protocol is the >>> key factor for choosing JWS. And I see no replacement being provided >>> by the JDK or even in the roadmap. >>> >>> Regards, >>> Michael >>> >>> On Sun, Nov 5, 2017 at 6:40 PM, Donald smith >>> wrote: >>>> The release notes are accurate. >>>> >>>> As we noted early in September [1]: >>>> >>>>> As client application development continues to shift from the old >>>>> ?plugin? world to modern deployment, the need for a standalone Java >>>>> Runtime Environment (JRE) that is installed centrally, separately >>>>> from Java applications has diminished.? Using the ?jlink? tool >>>>> introduced with JDK 9 will make it even easier for application >>>>> developers to package and deploy dedicated runtimes rather than >>>>> relying on a pre-installed system JRE. Oracle will begin >>>>> transitioning from the standalone architecture later next year in >>>>> what will be a multi-year effort. >>>> >>>> ? - Don >>>> >>>> [1] - >>>> https://blogs.oracle.com/java-platform-group/faster-and-easier-use-and-redistribution-of-java-se >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> On Nov 3, 2017, at 4:30 PM, August Nagro >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> The Java 9 Release Notes [1] include: >>>>> >>>>> "Java Deployment Technologies are deprecated and will be removed in a >>>>> future release. Java Applet and WebStart functionality, including the >>>>> Applet API, The Java plug-in, the Java Applet Viewer, JNLP and Java >>>>> Web >>>>> Start including the javaws tool are all deprecated in JDK 9 and >>>>> will be >>>>> removed in a future release." >>>>> >>>>> The bell has been ringing for Applets for some time, but I am >>>>> surprised by >>>>> the inclusion of Java WebStart / JNLP. The technology is the >>>>> recommended >>>>> migration path from applets [2], and provides some really enabling >>>>> features >>>>> like os-agnostics shortcuts, icons, and the ability to auto-update >>>>> in the >>>>> background. >>>>> >>>>> The `appletlauncher` executable has a clear deprecation warning in >>>>> Java 9, >>>>> but `javaws` has no such notice, leading me to believe there may be an >>>>> error. In any case, Java Web Start is a mature, useful technology >>>>> that has >>>>> undoubtedly received large investment over the years. It's sudden >>>>> removal >>>>> would be quite disappointing. >>>>> >>>>> Regards, >>>>> >>>>> August Nagro >>>>> >>>>> [1]: >>>>> http://www.oracle.com/technetwork/java/javase/9-deprecated-features-3745636.html >>>>> >>>>> [2]: http://openjdk.java.net/jeps/289 >> > -- -Alex From ebourg at apache.org Tue Nov 7 12:51:13 2017 From: ebourg at apache.org (Emmanuel Bourg) Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2017 13:51:13 +0100 Subject: Is Java WebStart Deprecated? In-Reply-To: <8a880fc3-b2d7-18c3-8a63-31b9f54509fa@oracle.com> References: <5A017C05.8080208@sibvisions.com> <5A018179.2080406@sibvisions.com> <8a880fc3-b2d7-18c3-8a63-31b9f54509fa@oracle.com> Message-ID: Le 7/11/2017 ? 11:31, dalibor topic a ?crit?: > While the Oracle JDK 9 download covers more platforms [1], you'd need to > find a way to run/extract the various target platform installation > packages on source platforms first, before you can start thinking about > cross-linking. On Debian at least you can co-install OpenJDK 9 for several architectures. I haven't tested, but assuming you are running Debian on amd64 the procedure would look like this: dpkg --add-architecture i386 dpkg --add-architecture arm64 dpkg --add-architecture armel dpkg --add-architecture armhf dpkg --add-architecture ppc64el apt-get update apt-get install openjdk-9-jdk:i386 apt-get install openjdk-9-jdk:arm64 apt-get install openjdk-9-jdk:armel apt-get install openjdk-9-jdk:armhf apt-get install openjdk-9-jdk:ppc64el The JDKs for each architecture will then be available at /usr/lib/jvm/java-9-openjdk-{amd64,i386,arm64,armel,armhf,ppc64el} But the images built by jlink in this case would be Debian specific. The deployer would have to redo the same work for Ubuntu, Red Hat and the other distributions supported (plus Windows and OS X of course). This is significantly more complicated than the usual JWS deployment scenario. Emmanuel Bourg From robert.zenz at sibvisions.com Tue Nov 7 13:29:38 2017 From: robert.zenz at sibvisions.com (Robert Zenz) Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2017 13:29:38 +0000 Subject: Is Java WebStart Deprecated? In-Reply-To: References: <5A017C05.8080208@sibvisions.com> <5A018179.2080406@sibvisions.com> <8a880fc3-b2d7-18c3-8a63-31b9f54509fa@oracle.com> Message-ID: <5A01B542.1060905@sibvisions.com> Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't this pull in (and install) *all* dependencies for the JDK in that (foreign) architecture, including kernel and libraries? On 07.11.2017 13:51, Emmanuel Bourg wrote: > On Debian at least you can co-install OpenJDK 9 for several > architectures. I haven't tested, but assuming you are running Debian on > amd64 the procedure would look like this: > > dpkg --add-architecture i386 > dpkg --add-architecture arm64 > dpkg --add-architecture armel > dpkg --add-architecture armhf > dpkg --add-architecture ppc64el > > apt-get update > apt-get install openjdk-9-jdk:i386 > apt-get install openjdk-9-jdk:arm64 > apt-get install openjdk-9-jdk:armel > apt-get install openjdk-9-jdk:armhf > apt-get install openjdk-9-jdk:ppc64el > > The JDKs for each architecture will then be available at > /usr/lib/jvm/java-9-openjdk-{amd64,i386,arm64,armel,armhf,ppc64el} > > But the images built by jlink in this case would be Debian specific. The > deployer would have to redo the same work for Ubuntu, Red Hat and the > other distributions supported (plus Windows and OS X of course). > > This is significantly more complicated than the usual JWS deployment > scenario. > > Emmanuel Bourg > From ebourg at apache.org Tue Nov 7 13:55:44 2017 From: ebourg at apache.org (Emmanuel Bourg) Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2017 14:55:44 +0100 Subject: Is Java WebStart Deprecated? In-Reply-To: <5A01B542.1060905@sibvisions.com> References: <5A017C05.8080208@sibvisions.com> <5A018179.2080406@sibvisions.com> <8a880fc3-b2d7-18c3-8a63-31b9f54509fa@oracle.com> <5A01B542.1060905@sibvisions.com> Message-ID: Le 7/11/2017 ? 14:29, Robert Zenz a ?crit?: > Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't this pull in (and install) *all* > dependencies for the JDK in that (foreign) architecture, including kernel and > libraries? Yes it will pull all the dependencies (I don't think it goes as far as pulling the kernel though). Another fun thing I didn't think initially, on Linux the images produced by jlink will not only be distro specific but also release specific, because the JRE was built with release specific versions of the dependencies. So if the application is targeting Ubuntu, you have to build an image for ~3 LTS releases and 2 intermediary releases (assuming the oldest supported LTS release has an OpenJDK 9 package, which isn't true today but will be in a few years). So that's already 10 jlink images just for Ubuntu on Intel 32/64 bits (double that for ARM). Emmanuel Bourg From chase9 at mac.com Tue Nov 7 16:23:26 2017 From: chase9 at mac.com (Chase Lau) Date: Tue, 07 Nov 2017 10:23:26 -0600 Subject: Is Java WebStart Deprecated? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Those are good arguments, Gus. I especially agree with the is 'Write Once, Run Anywhere' sentiment. It seems to me that Java is forgetting the reason it?s so popular: because almost anything from a phone to desktop to IoT device can run the code easily. Taking away some of this ease seems like a bad idea to me. Chase From: August Nagro Date: Monday, November 6, 2017 at 10:49 PM To: Chase Lau Subject: Fwd: Is Java WebStart Deprecated? ---------- Forwarded message --------- From: August Nagro Date: Mon, Nov 6, 2017 at 8:52 PM Subject: Re: Is Java WebStart Deprecated? To: Michael Nascimento Cc: Mario Torre , discuss at openjdk.java.net > If you target one specific OS in your company Even if this was always the case, why limit yourself? Java's motto is 'Write Once, Run Anywhere', after all. > I think we should have separated deployment strategies from the java platform If we really want separated deployment strategies we should deprecate the JAR format as well, since WebStart is in many ways its extension Consider the difficulties of distributing client applications as standalone executables: Need to build N times, and have the hardware to do so. Have to codesign and deploy each executable separately. Updating the application means more engineering. How does one launch with custom context from a browser? Custom loading screens? Shortcut installations? WebStart and JNLP solve all these problems in ~30 lines of xml. While the companies behind MineCraft and Intellij IDEA can afford the extra effort of OS-specific deployments, most individuals (and even medium sized teams) don't have the resources. For example, my high school calculus teacher wrote a beautiful integration-modeling Applet with Swing, which was eventually migrated to WebStart. I seriously doubt the tool would exist if it required OS-specific bundling. Instead the class would be sharing unversioned JAR files. This doesn't even take into account the valid use cases others have shared. And WebStart seems to be a popular deployment mechanism, considering it's mentioned on /r/Java every week. There are of course drawbacks to WebStart, such as: Scattered documentation Some platform-specific bugs Mac shortcuts not integrated with Spotlight search or Applications Folder Permissions dialogue is pretty ugly on Mac Only really works on Oracle distribution Startup time can be slow Requires full JRE Installed Security model is a pain Why is code signing required even for applications that use even the most sandboxed setting? Big maintenance burden on Oracle But with all the negatives considered, WebStart still has too much potential to deprecate and throw away. If the technology was brought to OpenJDK (like JMC and the other proprietary features) I suspect people will contribute. - August On Mon, Nov 6, 2017 at 9:43 AM Michael Nascimento wrote: On Mon, Nov 6, 2017 at 1:00 PM, Mario Torre wrote: > Each distributions have their own app store already, in fact they had > before App Store was even coined as a word. If you target one specific > OS in your company is pretty easy to create, for example, an rpm and > have a global configured repository that can be managed like any other > across your organisation, and doesn't have to be accessible > externally, it's very well suited for secure deployments of software. Except that for many enterprises, including a customer I worked for 7 years, you had to support pretty much any OS. Only 150 out of 300 "core" users (that had standard hardware/OS, the rest was BYOL over the VPN. > Also, while I didn't follow the whole discussion about its proposal, I > believe the future jpackager API will make it easier to create > distribution specific packages for a variety of targets. Flatpacks and > similar methods are also gaining leverage. I think we should have > separated deployment strategies from the java platform many years ago, > it's good we're doing that now at last. Updating with a differential download is a pretty neat feature of JWS. We had users at the Amazon forest area (yeah, this is enterprise software, they were independent sales representatives) and having a 20 MB application requiring just a 30-400kb upgrade at most was (and still is) a crucial reason for embracing JWS. Regards, Michael

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From robert.zenz at sibvisions.com Thu Nov 9 09:47:35 2017 From: robert.zenz at sibvisions.com (Robert Zenz) Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2017 09:47:35 +0000 Subject: Is Java WebStart Deprecated? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5A042438.9070206@sibvisions.com> As others have already pointed out, and I can only reiterate, the app store model is correct when you are concerned with getting (Java) applications to random "end" users. However, many of us are not concerned with how we get our application onto the PC of some random guy in Hong Kong who just wants to try it. We are concerned with getting it on several thousand systems in a controlled environment that might or might not be (physically) connected to the Internet and might or might not be in several different locations (or continents). Deployments in large companies and corporations for example. For this, applets were great, JNLP is just as great, having to create individual packages and manually installing them on every system (or relying on the user to do it), not so great. If OS developers decide to lock their system down to a point in which it is not possible anymore to install software without using their delivery methods (whatever that might be), then we'd need a different mechanism (as outlined in this thread) to deliver these applications. However, there is also a good chance that these OSs would simply be dropped, because I can't imagine that companies would like to put their several hundred man years ERP system into public app stores. This is a future that is possible, and that there are plans for it is great. But right now, and in the near future, we are dealing with a completely different set of problems, ones which were handled quite well with applets/JNLP. On 06.11.2017 15:26, Donald Smith wrote: > Hi Michael, > > No doubt this was true, but the OSes have shifted hard and fast away from this > model. The "app store" model is now it. macOS has been ratcheting this down > hard for several years now. MSFT -- even in the enterprise market -- has > signaled this direction as well. For sure we need to find options to support > the legacy, but the future here is limited. > > - Don From t_guerin at hotmail.com Thu Nov 9 10:08:41 2017 From: t_guerin at hotmail.com (=?utf-8?B?VGhpZXJyeSBHdcOpcmlu?=) Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2017 10:08:41 +0000 Subject: Is Java WebStart Deprecated? Message-ID: Hi Donald, I completely agree with Michael Nascimento and most of the comments here stating that jlink seems to be a poor replacement for JWS (not saying that saying is a bad product, just that it doesn't cover the same needs). What's alarming for me is that the deprecated features page mentions that JWS will be removed in a future release, but doesn't give even the slightest idea of a roadmap for this removal. Do you have more information on this? First LTS release (18.9)? next LTS? I need to know so that we can plan accordingly, as moving from JWS to jlink has quite a great impact: some missing features (such as the automatic update) will need to be addressed. I'd hate to discover that JWS was removed from a Java release the day it is released (like the recent disappearance of 32bit jvms). also, +1 for migrating JWS as part of OpenJDK if Oracle does not want to support it anymore Regards, Thierry From neugens at redhat.com Thu Nov 9 12:32:30 2017 From: neugens at redhat.com (Mario Torre) Date: Thu, 09 Nov 2017 13:32:30 +0100 Subject: Is Java WebStart Deprecated? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1510230750.17721.2.camel@redhat.com> On Thu, 2017-11-09 at 10:08 +0000, Thierry Gu?rin wrote: > is released (like the recent disappearance of 32bit jvms). I wasn't aware that 32 bit jvms disappeared. In fact, until recently, OpenJDK didn't have any binary release at all so it's more like 64 bit builds appeared rather than anything disappearing... You can just build your jdk for 32 bit and there are a number of downstream vendors supporting or otherwise offering 32 bit version still also for OpenJDK 9. Cheers, Mario From t_guerin at hotmail.com Thu Nov 9 13:39:29 2017 From: t_guerin at hotmail.com (=?utf-8?B?VGhpZXJyeSBHdcOpcmlu?=) Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2017 13:39:29 +0000 Subject: Is Java WebStart Deprecated? In-Reply-To: <1510230750.17721.2.camel@redhat.com> References: <1510230750.17721.2.camel@redhat.com> Message-ID: Sorry Mario, the comment was directed at Oracle, not OpenJdk or other vendors. I'm aware that other vendors offer 32 bit versions of OpenJDK 9, but : - they do not offer (AFAIK) Windows 32bit JRE with built-in Java Web Start support. I'm aware that RedHat does package IcedTea-Web in its OpenJDK (only 8 at the moment), but it's marked experimental for Windows - it's far more difficult to make some of our bigger clients install a JRE (on hundreds of their users' Windows computers) from a vendor that they have not certified So for my company, the sudden disappearance of Oracle-built 32 bit JRE was a bad surprise. That's why I'd like to know if there's a roadmap for the removal of Java Web Start, so we can plan ahead. Cheers, Thierry On 09/11/2017 13:32, Mario Torre wrote: > On Thu, 2017-11-09 at 10:08 +0000, Thierry Gu?rin wrote: > >> is released (like the recent disappearance of 32bit jvms). > I wasn't aware that 32 bit jvms disappeared. In fact, until recently, > OpenJDK didn't have any binary release at all so it's more like 64 bit > builds appeared rather than anything disappearing... > > You can just build your jdk for 32 bit and there are a number of > downstream vendors supporting or otherwise offering 32 bit version > still also for OpenJDK 9. > > Cheers, > Mario > From donald.smith at oracle.com Thu Nov 9 17:48:17 2017 From: donald.smith at oracle.com (Donald Smith) Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2017 12:48:17 -0500 Subject: Is Java WebStart Deprecated? In-Reply-To: References: <1510230750.17721.2.camel@redhat.com> Message-ID: <47cfdee8-a01f-06bc-74db-b9fa9b62d64a@oracle.com> Hi Thierry, I know the line gets blurry as myself and others will sometimes answer Oracle JDK specific questions here, but this is an OpenJDK specific list and why Mario answers from that POV. As a consumer of Oracle JDK/JRE binaries, the best place to send feedback is java.com/report. As per the mentioned release notes, we plan to remove it in an upcoming release, but it's still TBD.? As per our Support Road Map page[1], the Oracle JDK 8 deployment is the only supported and recommended deployment stack at this time. ?- Don [1] - http://www.oracle.com/technetwork/java/eol-135779.html On 09/11/2017 8:39 AM, Thierry Gu?rin wrote: > Sorry Mario, the comment was directed at Oracle, not OpenJdk or other > vendors. I'm aware that other vendors offer 32 bit versions of OpenJDK > 9, but : > > - they do not offer (AFAIK) Windows 32bit JRE with built-in Java Web > Start support. I'm aware that RedHat does package IcedTea-Web in its > OpenJDK (only 8 at the moment), but it's marked experimental for Windows > - it's far more difficult to make some of our bigger clients install a > JRE (on hundreds of their users' Windows computers) from a vendor that > they have not certified > > So for my company, the sudden disappearance of Oracle-built 32 bit JRE > was a bad surprise. That's why I'd like to know if there's a roadmap for > the removal of Java Web Start, so we can plan ahead. > > Cheers, > Thierry > > On 09/11/2017 13:32, Mario Torre wrote: >> On Thu, 2017-11-09 at 10:08 +0000, Thierry Gu?rin wrote: >> >>> is released (like the recent disappearance of 32bit jvms). >> I wasn't aware that 32 bit jvms disappeared. In fact, until recently, >> OpenJDK didn't have any binary release at all so it's more like 64 bit >> builds appeared rather than anything disappearing... >> >> You can just build your jdk for 32 bit and there are a number of >> downstream vendors supporting or otherwise offering 32 bit version >> still also for OpenJDK 9. >> >> Cheers, >> Mario >> From karen.kinnear at oracle.com Thu Nov 9 18:21:57 2017 From: karen.kinnear at oracle.com (Karen Kinnear) Date: Thu, 9 Nov 2017 13:21:57 -0500 Subject: CFV: New Project: Loom In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <62447138-E87F-461D-A99C-9D9CDF2474D1@oracle.com> Vote: yes thanks, Karen > On Oct 27, 2017, at 3:28 PM, Ron Pressler wrote: > > I hereby propose the creation of Project Loom with myself as the Lead and the > HotSpot Group as the sponsoring Group. > > In accordance with the OpenJDK guidelines [1], this project will provide a > venue to explore and incubate Java VM features and APIs built on top of them > for the implementation of lightweight user-mode threads (fibers), delimited > continuations (of some form), and related features, such as explicit > tail-call [2]. > > The initial Reviewers and Committers will be: > > * John Rose > * Karen Kinnear > * Alan Bateman > * Brian Goetz > * Mark Reinhold > * Ron Pressler > * Paul Sandoz > * Frederic Parain > * Erik Duveblad > * Vladimir Ivanov > > The initial source of this project will be a clone of a JDK 10 repository. > Changes from the JDK 10 parent will be synced into Loom periodically. Similar > to Project Valhalla, we will follow a "commit first, review later" policy, as > code will not flow directly from the Loom repositories into the JDK > repositories, but instead will be done by a "curated merge" where select > changes are extracted into new changesets for incorporation into JDK > repositories when they are ready for inclusion. > > Votes are due by by the end of November 10, 2017 (UTC). > > Only current OpenJDK Members [3] are eligible to vote on this > motion. Votes must be cast in the open on the discuss list. > Replying to this message is sufficient if your mail program > honors the Reply-To header. > > For Lazy Consensus voting instructions, see [4]. > > Ron Pressler > > [1] http://openjdk.java.net/projects/#new-project > [2] http://cr.openjdk.java.net/~rpressler/loom/Loom-Proposal.html > [3] http://openjdk.java.net/census#members > [4] http://openjdk.java.net/projects/#new-project-vote > > From matcdac at gmail.com Mon Nov 13 15:27:14 2017 From: matcdac at gmail.com (Prakhar Makhija) Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2017 20:57:14 +0530 Subject: Require some insight regarding Objects Message-ID: *json* {"subCategory":"European","bornLocation":"Pondicherry","name":"Goldi Heathers","someSocialStatus":"Active","prefferedCategory":"Within City","dateOfBeingBorn":"16/11/1987","interestedActivity":"Business","personalEarnings":500000.0,"matchfulDesiredEarnings":1000000.0,"identificationNumber":"X582TQ0170TF47002UTD087X74","prefferedClass":"Private","addressState":"Andaman and Nicobar Islands","someAddress":"House Number 143, Near Pie Beach, Port Blair, Andaman and Nicobar Islands, India - 744101","interestedActivityCode":72681.0,"emailId":"munchymuffin at gmail.com"} *class definition* public class MyClass { private String identificationNumber; private String name; private String someAddress; private String addressState; private String bornLocation; private String someSocialStatus; private String prefferedClass; private String prefferedCategory; private String subCategory; private String dateOfBeingBorn; private String interestedActivity; private Double interestedActivityCode; private Double personalEarnings; private Double matchfulDesiredEarnings; private String emailId; // getters & setters // constructors } *code block* import com.fasterxml.jackson.databind.ObjectMapper; ObjectMapper objectMapper = new ObjectMapper(); MyClass myClassObj = objectMapper.readValue(currentLine.getBytes(), MyClass.class); *topic* Likewise having 1.5 million json files Total size which they are occupying on disk is 940 Mega Bytes My first doubt is when I load all these json, to make objects out of them, will they occupy the same space in the memory? My second doubt is about what is going on internally in the JVM's memory, when I am making 1.5 million objects of MyClass. Lets pick one identifier 'identificationNumber', it has 20 characters. So just this field 'identificationNumber' is going to occupy 40 bytes only, or (40 * 1,500,000) = 60,000,000 bytes = 57.22 MB ???? PS : I am not aware which mailing list should be concerned with this kind of query, could you direct me to them, if you are not aware of what I am asking. From roman at kennke.org Mon Nov 13 15:57:20 2017 From: roman at kennke.org (Roman Kennke) Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2017 16:57:20 +0100 Subject: Require some insight regarding Objects In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4afbea27-269b-8a98-3759-57a2697cd6b2@kennke.org> Am 13.11.2017 um 16:27 schrieb Prakhar Makhija: > *json* > > {"subCategory":"European","bornLocation":"Pondicherry","name":"Goldi > Heathers","someSocialStatus":"Active","prefferedCategory":"Within > City","dateOfBeingBorn":"16/11/1987","interestedActivity":"Business","personalEarnings":500000.0,"matchfulDesiredEarnings":1000000.0,"identificationNumber":"X582TQ0170TF47002UTD087X74","prefferedClass":"Private","addressState":"Andaman > and Nicobar Islands","someAddress":"House Number 143, Near Pie Beach, Port > Blair, Andaman and Nicobar Islands, India - > 744101","interestedActivityCode":72681.0,"emailId":"munchymuffin at gmail.com"} > > > *class definition* > > public class MyClass { > private String identificationNumber; > > private String name; > private String someAddress; > private String addressState; > private String bornLocation; > > private String someSocialStatus; > private String prefferedClass; > private String prefferedCategory; > private String subCategory; > > private String dateOfBeingBorn; > > private String interestedActivity; > private Double interestedActivityCode; > > private Double personalEarnings; > private Double matchfulDesiredEarnings; > > private String emailId; > // getters & setters > // constructors > } > > > *code block* > > import com.fasterxml.jackson.databind.ObjectMapper; > > ObjectMapper objectMapper = new ObjectMapper(); > MyClass myClassObj = objectMapper.readValue(currentLine.getBytes(), > MyClass.class); > > > *topic* > > Likewise having 1.5 million json files > Total size which they are occupying on disk is 940 Mega Bytes > > My first doubt is when I load all these json, to make objects out of them, > will they occupy the same space in the memory? Unlikely. Because json is just character strings, while java objects are packed data. But see below: > My second doubt is about what is going on internally in the JVM's memory, > when I am making 1.5 million objects of MyClass. > Lets pick one identifier 'identificationNumber', it has 20 characters. > So just this field 'identificationNumber' is going to occupy 40 bytes only, > or (40 * 1,500,000) = 60,000,000 bytes = 57.22 MB > ???? Identifiers aren't accounted for every object. The compilers translate them to an index in object memory. You'd get a better picture if you actually load all those objects and serialize them to disk. Only the actual values are allocated for each object, and even then you can have strings deduplicated and/or interned. Hope that helps? Roman From djgredler at gmail.com Tue Nov 14 01:55:41 2017 From: djgredler at gmail.com (Daniel Gredler) Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2017 20:55:41 -0500 Subject: Oracle JDK vs. OpenJDK: font engine differences Message-ID: Hi all, Mark Cavage (Oracle VP Java and Container Native Platform) said the following last month during a JavaOne keynote [1]: "There will be zero differences between the OpenJDK and the Oracle JDK." A related blog post by Donald Smith (Oracle Sr. Director Product Management) [2] says: "[...] our intent is that within a few releases there should be no technical differences between OpenJDK builds and Oracle JDK binaries." I think that this is a great decision, but I haven't been able to find any mention of how this affects the font engine within the JDK. It is my understanding that one of the big differences between the Oracle JDK and the OpenJDK is that the Oracle JDK uses the proprietary T2K font library internally, while the OpenJDK uses FreeType [3]. Anecdotally, we are unable to use OpenJDK for some of our applications that require precise font measurement / layout, because rendering results are still inconsistent across the two runtimes. Has this difference, and the steps necessary to remedy it, been discussed on any public forums? I'd love to know more about the way forward here. Take care, Daniel [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tf5rlIS6tkg [2] https://blogs.oracle.com/java-platform-group/faster-and-easier-use-and-redistribution-of-java-se [3] https://technfun.wordpress.com/2013/01/18/last-difference-openjdk-oracle-jdk/ From dalibor.topic at oracle.com Tue Nov 14 08:44:37 2017 From: dalibor.topic at oracle.com (dalibor topic) Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2017 09:44:37 +0100 Subject: Oracle JDK vs. OpenJDK: font engine differences In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 14.11.2017 02:55, Daniel Gredler wrote: > I'd love to know more about > the way forward here. Please see http://mail.openjdk.java.net/pipermail/openjfx-dev/2017-October/020929.html cheers, dalibor topic -- Dalibor Topic | Principal Product Manager Phone: +494089091214 | Mobile: +491737185961 ORACLE Deutschland B.V. & Co. KG | K?hneh?fe 5 | 22761 Hamburg ORACLE Deutschland B.V. & Co. KG Hauptverwaltung: Riesstr. 25, D-80992 M?nchen Registergericht: Amtsgericht M?nchen, HRA 95603 Komplement?rin: ORACLE Deutschland Verwaltung B.V. Hertogswetering 163/167, 3543 AS Utrecht, Niederlande Handelsregister der Handelskammer Midden-Niederlande, Nr. 30143697 Gesch?ftsf?hrer: Alexander van der Ven, Jan Schultheiss, Val Maher Oracle is committed to developing practices and products that help protect the environment From volker.simonis at gmail.com Tue Nov 14 09:16:22 2017 From: volker.simonis at gmail.com (Volker Simonis) Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2017 09:16:22 +0000 Subject: Oracle JDK vs. OpenJDK: font engine differences In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: dalibor topic schrieb am Di. 14. Nov. 2017 um 09:44: > > > On 14.11.2017 02:55, Daniel Gredler wrote: > > I'd love to know more about > > the way forward here. > > Please see > http://mail.openjdk.java.net/pipermail/openjfx-dev/2017-October/020929.html > But that's about removinf T2K from JavaFX. The question was about the JDK. To my knowledge, the Oracle JDK 9 still contains and uses T2K for font rendering. > cheers, > dalibor topic > > -- > Dalibor Topic | Principal Product Manager > Phone: +494089091214 | Mobile: +491737185961 > > > ORACLE Deutschland B.V. & Co. KG | K?hneh?fe 5 | 22761 Ham > > burg > > ORACLE Deutschland B.V. & Co. KG > Hauptverwaltung: Riesstr > . 25, > D-80992 M?nchen > Registergericht: Amtsgericht M?nchen, HRA 95603 > > Komplement?rin: ORACLE Deutschland Verwaltung B.V. > Hertogswetering 163/167, 3543 AS Utrecht, Niederlande > Handelsregister der Handelskammer Midden-Niederlande, Nr. 30143697 > Gesch?ftsf?hrer: Alexander van der Ven, Jan Schultheiss, Val Maher > > Oracle is committed to developing > practices and products that help protect the environment > From dalibor.topic at oracle.com Tue Nov 14 09:42:19 2017 From: dalibor.topic at oracle.com (dalibor topic) Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2017 10:42:19 +0100 Subject: Oracle JDK vs. OpenJDK: font engine differences In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4c6e4d47-0014-7f2c-0aba-9e880cd860fa@oracle.com> On 14.11.2017 10:16, Volker Simonis wrote: > > dalibor topic > schrieb am Di. 14. Nov. 2017 um 09:44: > > > > On 14.11.2017 02:55, Daniel Gredler wrote: > > I'd love to know more about > > the way forward here. > > Please see > http://mail.openjdk.java.net/pipermail/openjfx-dev/2017-October/020929.html > > > But that's about removinf T2K from JavaFX. The question was about the > JDK. To my knowledge, the Oracle JDK 9 still contains and uses T2K for > font rendering. As the link above shows, in JDK 10, it's being removed from JavaFX, eliminating one aspect of the differences between Oracle JDK and OpenJDK going forward. As https://bugs.openjdk.java.net/browse/JDK-8093768 shows, freetype has already been the default in Oracle JDK builds for embedded and desktop Linux & OS X for a couple of years. cheers, dalibor topic -- Dalibor Topic | Principal Product Manager Phone: +494089091214 | Mobile: +491737185961 ORACLE Deutschland B.V. & Co. KG | K?hneh?fe 5 | 22761 Hamburg ORACLE Deutschland B.V. & Co. KG Hauptverwaltung: Riesstr. 25, D-80992 M?nchen Registergericht: Amtsgericht M?nchen, HRA 95603 Komplement?rin: ORACLE Deutschland Verwaltung B.V. Hertogswetering 163/167, 3543 AS Utrecht, Niederlande Handelsregister der Handelskammer Midden-Niederlande, Nr. 30143697 Gesch?ftsf?hrer: Alexander van der Ven, Jan Schultheiss, Val Maher Oracle is committed to developing practices and products that help protect the environment From neugens at redhat.com Tue Nov 14 12:56:29 2017 From: neugens at redhat.com (Mario Torre) Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2017 13:56:29 +0100 Subject: Oracle JDK vs. OpenJDK: font engine differences In-Reply-To: <4c6e4d47-0014-7f2c-0aba-9e880cd860fa@oracle.com> References: <4c6e4d47-0014-7f2c-0aba-9e880cd860fa@oracle.com> Message-ID: <1510664189.3435.1.camel@redhat.com> On Tue, 2017-11-14 at 10:42 +0100, dalibor topic wrote: > > On 14.11.2017 10:16, Volker Simonis wrote: > > > > dalibor topic > > schrieb am Di. 14. Nov. 2017 um > > 09:44: > > > > > > > > ????On 14.11.2017 02:55, Daniel Gredler wrote: > > ?????> I'd love to know more about > > ?????> the way forward here. > > > > ????Please see > > ????http://mail.openjdk.java.net/pipermail/openjfx-dev/2017-October > > /020929.html > > > > > > But that's about removinf T2K from JavaFX. The question was about > > the? > > JDK. To my knowledge, the Oracle JDK 9 still contains and uses T2K > > for? > > font rendering. > > As the link above shows, in JDK 10, it's being removed from JavaFX,? > eliminating one aspect of the differences between Oracle JDK and > OpenJDK? > going forward. I don't think this really answer the question though, JavaFX is not part of OpenJDK 10. If anything this is another source of difference because the Oracle JDK bundles JavaFX while OpenJDK doesn't. Just adding the JavaFX binary to the GPL binary of OpenJDK doesn't really work either, it may be, perhaps and at best, a temporary solution, but we need to make sure that if the plan is to bundle JavaFX with OpenJDK, this is done in a way that anyone can reproduce the full build with standard tooling and no special hacks, at least on the officially supported platforms. > As https://bugs.openjdk.java.net/browse/JDK-8093768 shows, freetype > has? > already been the default in Oracle JDK builds for embedded and > desktop? > Linux & OS X for a couple of years. This is also JavaFX, or am I misreading the bug report and target components? Cheers, Mario From dalibor.topic at oracle.com Tue Nov 14 13:08:10 2017 From: dalibor.topic at oracle.com (dalibor topic) Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2017 14:08:10 +0100 Subject: Oracle JDK vs. OpenJDK: font engine differences In-Reply-To: <1510664189.3435.1.camel@redhat.com> References: <4c6e4d47-0014-7f2c-0aba-9e880cd860fa@oracle.com> <1510664189.3435.1.camel@redhat.com> Message-ID: <4133e2a7-3e02-6c64-eaaa-a4da52df1c58@oracle.com> On 14.11.2017 13:56, Mario Torre wrote: >> As https://bugs.openjdk.java.net/browse/JDK-8093768 shows, freetype >> has >> already been the default in Oracle JDK builds for embedded and >> desktop >> Linux & OS X for a couple of years. > > This is also JavaFX, or am I misreading the bug report and target > components? You're right, of course - sorry for the confusion. cheers, dalibor topic -- Dalibor Topic | Principal Product Manager Phone: +494089091214 | Mobile: +491737185961 ORACLE Deutschland B.V. & Co. KG | K?hneh?fe 5 | 22761 Hamburg ORACLE Deutschland B.V. & Co. KG Hauptverwaltung: Riesstr. 25, D-80992 M?nchen Registergericht: Amtsgericht M?nchen, HRA 95603 Komplement?rin: ORACLE Deutschland Verwaltung B.V. Hertogswetering 163/167, 3543 AS Utrecht, Niederlande Handelsregister der Handelskammer Midden-Niederlande, Nr. 30143697 Gesch?ftsf?hrer: Alexander van der Ven, Jan Schultheiss, Val Maher Oracle is committed to developing practices and products that help protect the environment From volker.simonis at gmail.com Tue Nov 14 15:06:02 2017 From: volker.simonis at gmail.com (Volker Simonis) Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2017 16:06:02 +0100 Subject: Oracle JDK vs. OpenJDK: font engine differences In-Reply-To: <4133e2a7-3e02-6c64-eaaa-a4da52df1c58@oracle.com> References: <4c6e4d47-0014-7f2c-0aba-9e880cd860fa@oracle.com> <1510664189.3435.1.camel@redhat.com> <4133e2a7-3e02-6c64-eaaa-a4da52df1c58@oracle.com> Message-ID: Hi Dalibor, the Oracle JDK 9 (downloaded from [1]) still contains the T2K font renderer (at least on Linux and Windows): $ ./jdk-9.0.1/bin/java -version java version "9.0.1" Java(TM) SE Runtime Environment (build 9.0.1+11) Java HotSpot(TM) 64-Bit Server VM (build 9.0.1+11, mixed mode) $ grep -ri T2KFontScaler jdk-9.0.1/ Binary file jdk-9.0.1/lib/libt2k.so matches Binary file jdk-9.0.1/lib/modules matches Binary file jdk-9.0.1/jmods/java.desktop.jmod matches The reference implementation (both versions, the GPL licensed one as well as the Oracle Binary Code licensed one, downloaded from [2]) definitely don't contain the T2K renderer: $ ./java-se-9-ri-obcl/jdk-9/bin/java -version openjdk version "9" OpenJDK Runtime Environment (build 9+181) OpenJDK 64-Bit Server VM (build 9+181, mixed mode) $ grep -ri T2KFontScaler ./java-se-9-ri-obcl Binary file ./java-se-9-ri-obcl/jdk-9/lib/modules matches The corresponding switch for enabling T2K for non-OpenJDK builds is still in the jdk10 [3] code base: Class tmp = (Class) (FontUtilities.isOpenJDK ? Class.forName("sun.font.FreetypeFontScaler") : Class.forName("sun.font.T2KFontScaler")); If you're aware of a JBS issue to remove it please post it here. Another issue which many users of the current Oracle JDK are not aware of is that the Oracle JDK contains a set of standard fonts which many applications more or less "depend" on: $ la jdk-9.0.1/lib/fonts/ total 2052 -rw-r--r-- 1 simonis simonis 4041 Sep 28 05:51 fonts.dir -rw-r--r-- 1 simonis simonis 75144 Sep 28 05:51 LucidaBrightDemiBold.ttf -rw-r--r-- 1 simonis simonis 75124 Sep 28 05:51 LucidaBrightDemiItalic.ttf -rw-r--r-- 1 simonis simonis 80856 Sep 28 05:51 LucidaBrightItalic.ttf -rw-r--r-- 1 simonis simonis 344908 Sep 28 05:51 LucidaBrightRegular.ttf -rw-r--r-- 1 simonis simonis 317896 Sep 28 05:51 LucidaSansDemiBold.ttf -rw-r--r-- 1 simonis simonis 698236 Sep 28 05:51 LucidaSansRegular.ttf -rw-r--r-- 1 simonis simonis 234068 Sep 28 05:51 LucidaTypewriterBold.ttf -rw-r--r-- 1 simonis simonis 242700 Sep 28 05:51 LucidaTypewriterRegular.ttf The OpenJDK binaries don't contain these fonts: $ la ./java-se-9-ri-obcl/jdk-9/lib/fonts ls: cannot access './java-se-9-ri-obcl/jdk-9/lib/fonts': No such file or directory This can be especially problematic on Linux where each distribution has its own, potentially different set of standard fonts. Are there any plans to open-source the aforementioned fonts such that they can be added to the OpenJDK and be distributed along with it? Or is it clear that the fonts currently shipped with the Oracle JDK will never be included into the OpenJDK (e.g. because of licensing issues)? Regards, Volker [1] http://www.oracle.com/technetwork/java/javase/downloads/jdk9-downloads-3848520.html [2] http://jdk.java.net/java-se-ri/9 [3] http://hg.openjdk.java.net/jdk/jdk/file/94f362b5f4dd/src/java.desktop/share/classes/sun/font/FontScaler.java On Tue, Nov 14, 2017 at 2:08 PM, dalibor topic wrote: > > > On 14.11.2017 13:56, Mario Torre wrote: > >>> As https://bugs.openjdk.java.net/browse/JDK-8093768 shows, freetype >>> has >>> already been the default in Oracle JDK builds for embedded and >>> desktop >>> Linux & OS X for a couple of years. >> >> >> This is also JavaFX, or am I misreading the bug report and target >> components? > > > You're right, of course - sorry for the confusion. > > > cheers, > dalibor topic > > -- > Dalibor Topic | Principal Product Manager > Phone: +494089091214 | Mobile: +491737185961 > > > ORACLE Deutschland B.V. & Co. KG | K?hneh?fe 5 | 22761 Hamburg > > ORACLE Deutschland B.V. & Co. KG > Hauptverwaltung: Riesstr. 25, D-80992 M?nchen > Registergericht: Amtsgericht M?nchen, HRA 95603 > > Komplement?rin: ORACLE Deutschland Verwaltung B.V. > Hertogswetering 163/167, 3543 AS Utrecht, Niederlande > Handelsregister der Handelskammer Midden-Niederlande, Nr. 30143697 > Gesch?ftsf?hrer: Alexander van der Ven, Jan Schultheiss, Val Maher > > Oracle is committed to developing > practices and products that help protect the environment From philip.race at oracle.com Tue Nov 14 16:52:09 2017 From: philip.race at oracle.com (Phil Race) Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2017 08:52:09 -0800 Subject: Oracle JDK vs. OpenJDK: font engine differences In-Reply-To: References: <4c6e4d47-0014-7f2c-0aba-9e880cd860fa@oracle.com> <1510664189.3435.1.camel@redhat.com> <4133e2a7-3e02-6c64-eaaa-a4da52df1c58@oracle.com> Message-ID: Hi Volker, I don't think there is a claim anywhere that JDK 10 EA "Oracle JDK" binaries have already migrated to be GPL binaries. The migration from T2K to Freetype still has to take place and I expect there will be occasional rendering and measurement differences which will be considered incompatibilities but it is inevitable and unavoidable. It should be mitigated by the facts that Linux distros already use freetype in their binaries so it should be no difference there, and on Mac. we mostly use the Mac native coretext renderer, and on Windows we get LCD glyphs (what most UIs use) from GDI as well. Still there are plenty of cases where T2K is used for glyphs + metrics. As to the Lucida fonts, like T2K, if we could have open sourced those we would have done it in 2007 at the inception of OpenJDK. Whilst the license was generous it was not that generous .. I am sure that many apps - and many internal behaviours - were written with an assumption they were there and we will definitely have to accept that there will be consequences both in terms of changes we need to make to internal JDK code and changes apps will need to make to adapt. Those that have been tested on OpenJDK should have made those adaptations long ago .. Also although those are some of the most prominent pieces we can't open source, there are other more obscure ones. For example the ICC profile files in Oracle JDK were licensed from Kodak and can't be open sourced. We'll need to switch those to the open source ones, with minor consequences but only to the most colour sensitive sophisticated apps .. -phil On 11/14/2017 07:06 AM, Volker Simonis wrote: > Hi Dalibor, > > the Oracle JDK 9 (downloaded from [1]) still contains the T2K font > renderer (at least on Linux and Windows): > > $ ./jdk-9.0.1/bin/java -version > java version "9.0.1" > Java(TM) SE Runtime Environment (build 9.0.1+11) > Java HotSpot(TM) 64-Bit Server VM (build 9.0.1+11, mixed mode) > > $ grep -ri T2KFontScaler jdk-9.0.1/ > Binary file jdk-9.0.1/lib/libt2k.so matches > Binary file jdk-9.0.1/lib/modules matches > Binary file jdk-9.0.1/jmods/java.desktop.jmod matches > > The reference implementation (both versions, the GPL licensed one as > well as the Oracle Binary Code licensed one, downloaded from [2]) > definitely don't contain the T2K renderer: > > $ ./java-se-9-ri-obcl/jdk-9/bin/java -version > openjdk version "9" > OpenJDK Runtime Environment (build 9+181) > OpenJDK 64-Bit Server VM (build 9+181, mixed mode) > > $ grep -ri T2KFontScaler ./java-se-9-ri-obcl > Binary file ./java-se-9-ri-obcl/jdk-9/lib/modules matches > > The corresponding switch for enabling T2K for non-OpenJDK builds is > still in the jdk10 [3] code base: > > Class tmp = (Class) > (FontUtilities.isOpenJDK ? > Class.forName("sun.font.FreetypeFontScaler") : > Class.forName("sun.font.T2KFontScaler")); > > If you're aware of a JBS issue to remove it please post it here. > > Another issue which many users of the current Oracle JDK are not aware > of is that the Oracle JDK contains a set of standard fonts which many > applications more or less "depend" on: > > $ la jdk-9.0.1/lib/fonts/ > total 2052 > -rw-r--r-- 1 simonis simonis 4041 Sep 28 05:51 fonts.dir > -rw-r--r-- 1 simonis simonis 75144 Sep 28 05:51 LucidaBrightDemiBold.ttf > -rw-r--r-- 1 simonis simonis 75124 Sep 28 05:51 LucidaBrightDemiItalic.ttf > -rw-r--r-- 1 simonis simonis 80856 Sep 28 05:51 LucidaBrightItalic.ttf > -rw-r--r-- 1 simonis simonis 344908 Sep 28 05:51 LucidaBrightRegular.ttf > -rw-r--r-- 1 simonis simonis 317896 Sep 28 05:51 LucidaSansDemiBold.ttf > -rw-r--r-- 1 simonis simonis 698236 Sep 28 05:51 LucidaSansRegular.ttf > -rw-r--r-- 1 simonis simonis 234068 Sep 28 05:51 LucidaTypewriterBold.ttf > -rw-r--r-- 1 simonis simonis 242700 Sep 28 05:51 LucidaTypewriterRegular.ttf > > The OpenJDK binaries don't contain these fonts: > > $ la ./java-se-9-ri-obcl/jdk-9/lib/fonts > ls: cannot access './java-se-9-ri-obcl/jdk-9/lib/fonts': No such file > or directory > > This can be especially problematic on Linux where each distribution > has its own, potentially different set of standard fonts. > > Are there any plans to open-source the aforementioned fonts such that > they can be added to the OpenJDK and be distributed along with it? Or > is it clear that the fonts currently shipped with the Oracle JDK will > never be included into the OpenJDK (e.g. because of licensing issues)? > > Regards, > Volker > > [1] http://www.oracle.com/technetwork/java/javase/downloads/jdk9-downloads-3848520.html > [2] http://jdk.java.net/java-se-ri/9 > [3] http://hg.openjdk.java.net/jdk/jdk/file/94f362b5f4dd/src/java.desktop/share/classes/sun/font/FontScaler.java > > On Tue, Nov 14, 2017 at 2:08 PM, dalibor topic wrote: >> >> On 14.11.2017 13:56, Mario Torre wrote: >> >>>> As https://bugs.openjdk.java.net/browse/JDK-8093768 shows, freetype >>>> has >>>> already been the default in Oracle JDK builds for embedded and >>>> desktop >>>> Linux & OS X for a couple of years. >>> >>> This is also JavaFX, or am I misreading the bug report and target >>> components? >> >> You're right, of course - sorry for the confusion. >> >> >> cheers, >> dalibor topic >> >> -- >> Dalibor Topic | Principal Product Manager >> Phone: +494089091214 | Mobile: +491737185961 >> >> >> ORACLE Deutschland B.V. & Co. KG | K?hneh?fe 5 | 22761 Hamburg >> >> ORACLE Deutschland B.V. & Co. KG >> Hauptverwaltung: Riesstr. 25, D-80992 M?nchen >> Registergericht: Amtsgericht M?nchen, HRA 95603 >> >> Komplement?rin: ORACLE Deutschland Verwaltung B.V. >> Hertogswetering 163/167, 3543 AS Utrecht, Niederlande >> Handelsregister der Handelskammer Midden-Niederlande, Nr. 30143697 >> Gesch?ftsf?hrer: Alexander van der Ven, Jan Schultheiss, Val Maher >> >> Oracle is committed to developing >> practices and products that help protect the environment From philip.race at oracle.com Tue Nov 14 16:58:01 2017 From: philip.race at oracle.com (Phil Race) Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2017 08:58:01 -0800 Subject: Oracle JDK vs. OpenJDK: font engine differences In-Reply-To: <1510664189.3435.1.camel@redhat.com> References: <4c6e4d47-0014-7f2c-0aba-9e880cd860fa@oracle.com> <1510664189.3435.1.camel@redhat.com> Message-ID: <4e8ab395-62c7-de05-de57-9bb370fe04a3@oracle.com> > This is also JavaFX, or am I misreading the bug report and target components? Right. Any reference you find anywhere to current shipping Oracle binaries using freetype are limited entirely to OpenJFX where it uses the platform rasteriser and that HAPPENS to be freetype on Linux It does not ship or include freetype .. it just picks it up from the desktop environment .. no different than any other platform API JDK might use. T2K is not used by default anywhere in OpenJFX today. It was still there for embedded use on some platforms that did not include freetype by default and for Windows Vista (!) which did not include the needed DirectWrite libraries. Those are now both legacy / unsupported and so T2K is already removed from OpenJFX (not OpenJDK) in 10. -phil. On 11/14/2017 04:56 AM, Mario Torre wrote: > On Tue, 2017-11-14 at 10:42 +0100, dalibor topic wrote: >> On 14.11.2017 10:16, Volker Simonis wrote: >>> dalibor topic >> > schrieb am Di. 14. Nov. 2017 um >>> 09:44: >>> >>> >>> >>> On 14.11.2017 02:55, Daniel Gredler wrote: >>> > I'd love to know more about >>> > the way forward here. >>> >>> Please see >>> http://mail.openjdk.java.net/pipermail/openjfx-dev/2017-October >>> /020929.html >>> >>> >>> But that's about removinf T2K from JavaFX. The question was about >>> the >>> JDK. To my knowledge, the Oracle JDK 9 still contains and uses T2K >>> for >>> font rendering. >> As the link above shows, in JDK 10, it's being removed from JavaFX, >> eliminating one aspect of the differences between Oracle JDK and >> OpenJDK >> going forward. > I don't think this really answer the question though, JavaFX is not > part of OpenJDK 10. If anything this is another source of difference > because the Oracle JDK bundles JavaFX while OpenJDK doesn't. Just > adding the JavaFX binary to the GPL binary of OpenJDK doesn't really > work either, it may be, perhaps and at best, a temporary solution, but > we need to make sure that if the plan is to bundle JavaFX with OpenJDK, > this is done in a way that anyone can reproduce the full build with > standard tooling and no special hacks, at least on the officially > supported platforms. > >> As https://bugs.openjdk.java.net/browse/JDK-8093768 shows, freetype >> has >> already been the default in Oracle JDK builds for embedded and >> desktop >> Linux & OS X for a couple of years. > This is also JavaFX, or am I misreading the bug report and target > components? > > Cheers, > Mario > From volker.simonis at gmail.com Tue Nov 14 17:18:58 2017 From: volker.simonis at gmail.com (Volker Simonis) Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2017 18:18:58 +0100 Subject: Oracle JDK vs. OpenJDK: font engine differences In-Reply-To: References: <4c6e4d47-0014-7f2c-0aba-9e880cd860fa@oracle.com> <1510664189.3435.1.camel@redhat.com> <4133e2a7-3e02-6c64-eaaa-a4da52df1c58@oracle.com> Message-ID: Hi Phil, thanks for the clarifications. On Tue, Nov 14, 2017 at 5:52 PM, Phil Race wrote: > Hi Volker, > > I don't think there is a claim anywhere that JDK 10 EA "Oracle JDK" > binaries have > already migrated to be GPL binaries. > I didn't asserted that there is such a claim. I just noticed that T2K is still used in Oracle's JDK 10 binaries today and that I've seen no discussion about removing it yet, because that was not clear from the first answers on this thread. > The migration from T2K to Freetype still has to take place and I expect > there > will be occasional rendering and measurement differences which will be > considered incompatibilities but it is inevitable and unavoidable. > > It should be mitigated by the facts that Linux distros already use freetype > in their binaries so it should be no difference there, and on Mac. we mostly > use the Mac native coretext renderer, and on Windows we get LCD glyphs > (what most UIs use) from GDI as well. > Still there are plenty of cases where T2K is used for glyphs + metrics. > I know a lot of people who have switched back from OpenJDK to Oracle JDK "because the fonts looked better". But thats mostly because of Oracle JDK's integrated fonts, not because of the renderer. And that may have changed with better font properties files and fonts in recent Linux distributions. > As to the Lucida fonts, like T2K, if we could have open sourced those we > would have done it in 2007 at the inception of OpenJDK. Whilst the license > was generous it was not that generous .. > That's a pity but we can not change that. Maybe it would be worth while thinking about the inclusion of an open-source, high-quality, Unicode-complete (well as much as possible :) font family into the OpenJDK, such that we can get precise, cross-platform font rendering ? I'm not a font expert, but it seems that there are quite some free fonts available nowadays (e.g. Google Fonts, Ubuntu fonts) and maybe we can even convince IBM to donate their WorldType font family now that they've open sourced J9 :) > I am sure that many apps - and many internal behaviours - were written > with an assumption they were there and we will definitely have to accept > that there will be consequences both in terms of changes we need to make > to internal JDK code and changes apps will need to make to adapt. > Those that have been tested on OpenJDK should have made those adaptations > long ago .. > > Also although those are some of the most prominent pieces we can't open > source, > there are other more obscure ones. For example the ICC profile files in > Oracle JDK > were licensed from Kodak and can't be open sourced. We'll need to switch > those > to the open source ones, with minor consequences but only to the most colour > sensitive sophisticated apps .. > Yes, I know but I agree that color profiles won't impact nearly as many people as different font layout. Regards, Volker > -phil > > > On 11/14/2017 07:06 AM, Volker Simonis wrote: >> >> Hi Dalibor, >> >> the Oracle JDK 9 (downloaded from [1]) still contains the T2K font >> renderer (at least on Linux and Windows): >> >> $ ./jdk-9.0.1/bin/java -version >> java version "9.0.1" >> Java(TM) SE Runtime Environment (build 9.0.1+11) >> Java HotSpot(TM) 64-Bit Server VM (build 9.0.1+11, mixed mode) >> >> $ grep -ri T2KFontScaler jdk-9.0.1/ >> Binary file jdk-9.0.1/lib/libt2k.so matches >> Binary file jdk-9.0.1/lib/modules matches >> Binary file jdk-9.0.1/jmods/java.desktop.jmod matches >> >> The reference implementation (both versions, the GPL licensed one as >> well as the Oracle Binary Code licensed one, downloaded from [2]) >> definitely don't contain the T2K renderer: >> >> $ ./java-se-9-ri-obcl/jdk-9/bin/java -version >> openjdk version "9" >> OpenJDK Runtime Environment (build 9+181) >> OpenJDK 64-Bit Server VM (build 9+181, mixed mode) >> >> $ grep -ri T2KFontScaler ./java-se-9-ri-obcl >> Binary file ./java-se-9-ri-obcl/jdk-9/lib/modules matches >> >> The corresponding switch for enabling T2K for non-OpenJDK builds is >> still in the jdk10 [3] code base: >> >> Class tmp = (Class) >> (FontUtilities.isOpenJDK ? >> Class.forName("sun.font.FreetypeFontScaler") : >> Class.forName("sun.font.T2KFontScaler")); >> >> If you're aware of a JBS issue to remove it please post it here. >> >> Another issue which many users of the current Oracle JDK are not aware >> of is that the Oracle JDK contains a set of standard fonts which many >> applications more or less "depend" on: >> >> $ la jdk-9.0.1/lib/fonts/ >> total 2052 >> -rw-r--r-- 1 simonis simonis 4041 Sep 28 05:51 fonts.dir >> -rw-r--r-- 1 simonis simonis 75144 Sep 28 05:51 LucidaBrightDemiBold.ttf >> -rw-r--r-- 1 simonis simonis 75124 Sep 28 05:51 >> LucidaBrightDemiItalic.ttf >> -rw-r--r-- 1 simonis simonis 80856 Sep 28 05:51 LucidaBrightItalic.ttf >> -rw-r--r-- 1 simonis simonis 344908 Sep 28 05:51 LucidaBrightRegular.ttf >> -rw-r--r-- 1 simonis simonis 317896 Sep 28 05:51 LucidaSansDemiBold.ttf >> -rw-r--r-- 1 simonis simonis 698236 Sep 28 05:51 LucidaSansRegular.ttf >> -rw-r--r-- 1 simonis simonis 234068 Sep 28 05:51 LucidaTypewriterBold.ttf >> -rw-r--r-- 1 simonis simonis 242700 Sep 28 05:51 >> LucidaTypewriterRegular.ttf >> >> The OpenJDK binaries don't contain these fonts: >> >> $ la ./java-se-9-ri-obcl/jdk-9/lib/fonts >> ls: cannot access './java-se-9-ri-obcl/jdk-9/lib/fonts': No such file >> or directory >> >> This can be especially problematic on Linux where each distribution >> has its own, potentially different set of standard fonts. >> >> Are there any plans to open-source the aforementioned fonts such that >> they can be added to the OpenJDK and be distributed along with it? Or >> is it clear that the fonts currently shipped with the Oracle JDK will >> never be included into the OpenJDK (e.g. because of licensing issues)? >> >> Regards, >> Volker >> >> [1] >> http://www.oracle.com/technetwork/java/javase/downloads/jdk9-downloads-3848520.html >> [2] http://jdk.java.net/java-se-ri/9 >> [3] >> http://hg.openjdk.java.net/jdk/jdk/file/94f362b5f4dd/src/java.desktop/share/classes/sun/font/FontScaler.java >> >> On Tue, Nov 14, 2017 at 2:08 PM, dalibor topic >> wrote: >>> >>> >>> On 14.11.2017 13:56, Mario Torre wrote: >>> >>>>> As https://bugs.openjdk.java.net/browse/JDK-8093768 shows, freetype >>>>> has >>>>> already been the default in Oracle JDK builds for embedded and >>>>> desktop >>>>> Linux & OS X for a couple of years. >>>> >>>> >>>> This is also JavaFX, or am I misreading the bug report and target >>>> components? >>> >>> >>> You're right, of course - sorry for the confusion. >>> >>> >>> cheers, >>> dalibor topic >>> >>> -- >>> Dalibor Topic | Principal Product Manager >>> Phone: +494089091214 | Mobile: +491737185961 >>> >>> >>> ORACLE Deutschland B.V. & Co. KG | K?hneh?fe 5 | 22761 Hamburg >>> >>> ORACLE Deutschland B.V. & Co. KG >>> Hauptverwaltung: Riesstr. 25, D-80992 M?nchen >>> Registergericht: Amtsgericht M?nchen, HRA 95603 >>> >>> Komplement?rin: ORACLE Deutschland Verwaltung B.V. >>> Hertogswetering 163/167, 3543 AS Utrecht, Niederlande >>> Handelsregister der Handelskammer Midden-Niederlande, Nr. 30143697 >>> Gesch?ftsf?hrer: Alexander van der Ven, Jan Schultheiss, Val Maher >>> >>> Oracle is committed to developing >>> practices and products that help protect the environment > > From djgredler at gmail.com Wed Nov 15 05:56:24 2017 From: djgredler at gmail.com (Daniel Gredler) Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2017 00:56:24 -0500 Subject: Oracle JDK vs. OpenJDK: font engine differences In-Reply-To: References: <4c6e4d47-0014-7f2c-0aba-9e880cd860fa@oracle.com> <1510664189.3435.1.camel@redhat.com> <4133e2a7-3e02-6c64-eaaa-a4da52df1c58@oracle.com> Message-ID: Hi *, Thanks for all the information! > The migration from T2K to Freetype still has to take place and I > expect there will be occasional rendering and measurement > differences which will be considered incompatibilities but it is > inevitable and unavoidable. Do you have any idea on the timeline? Even something as vague as "definitely not in the next 12 months" would be helpful. Is there a specific bug / feature / mailing list that I can watch to stay up to date on this migration specifically? > Maybe it would be worth while thinking about the inclusion of an > open-source, high-quality, Unicode-complete (well as much as > possible :) font family into the OpenJDK Google Noto fonts are open source and collectively have very nice Unicode coverage... Not sure if they're considered high-quality, but some of them were designed in collaboration with Adobe. https://www.google.com/get/noto/ Take care, Daniel On Tue, Nov 14, 2017 at 12:18 PM, Volker Simonis wrote: > Hi Phil, > > thanks for the clarifications. > > On Tue, Nov 14, 2017 at 5:52 PM, Phil Race wrote: > > Hi Volker, > > > > I don't think there is a claim anywhere that JDK 10 EA "Oracle JDK" > > binaries have > > already migrated to be GPL binaries. > > > > I didn't asserted that there is such a claim. I just noticed that T2K > is still used in Oracle's JDK 10 binaries today and that I've seen no > discussion about removing it yet, because that was not clear from the > first answers on this thread. > > > The migration from T2K to Freetype still has to take place and I expect > > there > > will be occasional rendering and measurement differences which will be > > considered incompatibilities but it is inevitable and unavoidable. > > > > It should be mitigated by the facts that Linux distros already use > freetype > > in their binaries so it should be no difference there, and on Mac. we > mostly > > use the Mac native coretext renderer, and on Windows we get LCD glyphs > > (what most UIs use) from GDI as well. > > Still there are plenty of cases where T2K is used for glyphs + metrics. > > > > I know a lot of people who have switched back from OpenJDK to Oracle > JDK "because the fonts looked better". But thats mostly because of > Oracle JDK's integrated fonts, not because of the renderer. And that > may have changed with better font properties files and fonts in recent > Linux distributions. > > > As to the Lucida fonts, like T2K, if we could have open sourced those we > > would have done it in 2007 at the inception of OpenJDK. Whilst the > license > > was generous it was not that generous .. > > > > That's a pity but we can not change that. Maybe it would be worth > while thinking about the inclusion of an open-source, high-quality, > Unicode-complete (well as much as possible :) font family into the > OpenJDK, such that we can get precise, cross-platform font rendering ? > I'm not a font expert, but it seems that there are quite some free > fonts available nowadays (e.g. Google Fonts, Ubuntu fonts) and maybe > we can even convince IBM to donate their WorldType font family now > that they've open sourced J9 :) > > > I am sure that many apps - and many internal behaviours - were written > > with an assumption they were there and we will definitely have to accept > > that there will be consequences both in terms of changes we need to make > > to internal JDK code and changes apps will need to make to adapt. > > Those that have been tested on OpenJDK should have made those adaptations > > long ago .. > > > > Also although those are some of the most prominent pieces we can't open > > source, > > there are other more obscure ones. For example the ICC profile files in > > Oracle JDK > > were licensed from Kodak and can't be open sourced. We'll need to switch > > those > > to the open source ones, with minor consequences but only to the most > colour > > sensitive sophisticated apps .. > > > > Yes, I know but I agree that color profiles won't impact nearly as > many people as different font layout. > > Regards, > Volker > > > -phil > > > > > > On 11/14/2017 07:06 AM, Volker Simonis wrote: > >> > >> Hi Dalibor, > >> > >> the Oracle JDK 9 (downloaded from [1]) still contains the T2K font > >> renderer (at least on Linux and Windows): > >> > >> $ ./jdk-9.0.1/bin/java -version > >> java version "9.0.1" > >> Java(TM) SE Runtime Environment (build 9.0.1+11) > >> Java HotSpot(TM) 64-Bit Server VM (build 9.0.1+11, mixed mode) > >> > >> $ grep -ri T2KFontScaler jdk-9.0.1/ > >> Binary file jdk-9.0.1/lib/libt2k.so matches > >> Binary file jdk-9.0.1/lib/modules matches > >> Binary file jdk-9.0.1/jmods/java.desktop.jmod matches > >> > >> The reference implementation (both versions, the GPL licensed one as > >> well as the Oracle Binary Code licensed one, downloaded from [2]) > >> definitely don't contain the T2K renderer: > >> > >> $ ./java-se-9-ri-obcl/jdk-9/bin/java -version > >> openjdk version "9" > >> OpenJDK Runtime Environment (build 9+181) > >> OpenJDK 64-Bit Server VM (build 9+181, mixed mode) > >> > >> $ grep -ri T2KFontScaler ./java-se-9-ri-obcl > >> Binary file ./java-se-9-ri-obcl/jdk-9/lib/modules matches > >> > >> The corresponding switch for enabling T2K for non-OpenJDK builds is > >> still in the jdk10 [3] code base: > >> > >> Class tmp = (Class) > >> (FontUtilities.isOpenJDK ? > >> Class.forName("sun.font.FreetypeFontScaler") : > >> Class.forName("sun.font.T2KFontScaler")); > >> > >> If you're aware of a JBS issue to remove it please post it here. > >> > >> Another issue which many users of the current Oracle JDK are not aware > >> of is that the Oracle JDK contains a set of standard fonts which many > >> applications more or less "depend" on: > >> > >> $ la jdk-9.0.1/lib/fonts/ > >> total 2052 > >> -rw-r--r-- 1 simonis simonis 4041 Sep 28 05:51 fonts.dir > >> -rw-r--r-- 1 simonis simonis 75144 Sep 28 05:51 > LucidaBrightDemiBold.ttf > >> -rw-r--r-- 1 simonis simonis 75124 Sep 28 05:51 > >> LucidaBrightDemiItalic.ttf > >> -rw-r--r-- 1 simonis simonis 80856 Sep 28 05:51 LucidaBrightItalic.ttf > >> -rw-r--r-- 1 simonis simonis 344908 Sep 28 05:51 > LucidaBrightRegular.ttf > >> -rw-r--r-- 1 simonis simonis 317896 Sep 28 05:51 LucidaSansDemiBold.ttf > >> -rw-r--r-- 1 simonis simonis 698236 Sep 28 05:51 LucidaSansRegular.ttf > >> -rw-r--r-- 1 simonis simonis 234068 Sep 28 05:51 > LucidaTypewriterBold.ttf > >> -rw-r--r-- 1 simonis simonis 242700 Sep 28 05:51 > >> LucidaTypewriterRegular.ttf > >> > >> The OpenJDK binaries don't contain these fonts: > >> > >> $ la ./java-se-9-ri-obcl/jdk-9/lib/fonts > >> ls: cannot access './java-se-9-ri-obcl/jdk-9/lib/fonts': No such file > >> or directory > >> > >> This can be especially problematic on Linux where each distribution > >> has its own, potentially different set of standard fonts. > >> > >> Are there any plans to open-source the aforementioned fonts such that > >> they can be added to the OpenJDK and be distributed along with it? Or > >> is it clear that the fonts currently shipped with the Oracle JDK will > >> never be included into the OpenJDK (e.g. because of licensing issues)? > >> > >> Regards, > >> Volker > >> > >> [1] > >> http://www.oracle.com/technetwork/java/javase/downloads/jdk9-downloads- > 3848520.html > >> [2] http://jdk.java.net/java-se-ri/9 > >> [3] > >> http://hg.openjdk.java.net/jdk/jdk/file/94f362b5f4dd/src/ > java.desktop/share/classes/sun/font/FontScaler.java > >> > >> On Tue, Nov 14, 2017 at 2:08 PM, dalibor topic < > dalibor.topic at oracle.com> > >> wrote: > >>> > >>> > >>> On 14.11.2017 13:56, Mario Torre wrote: > >>> > >>>>> As https://bugs.openjdk.java.net/browse/JDK-8093768 shows, freetype > >>>>> has > >>>>> already been the default in Oracle JDK builds for embedded and > >>>>> desktop > >>>>> Linux & OS X for a couple of years. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> This is also JavaFX, or am I misreading the bug report and target > >>>> components? > >>> > >>> > >>> You're right, of course - sorry for the confusion. > >>> > >>> > >>> cheers, > >>> dalibor topic > >>> > >>> -- > >>> Dalibor Topic | Principal Product Manager > >>> Phone: +494089091214 | Mobile: +491737185961 > >>> > >>> > >>> ORACLE Deutschland B.V. & Co. KG | K?hneh?fe 5 | 22761 Hamburg > >>> > >>> ORACLE Deutschland B.V. & Co. KG > >>> Hauptverwaltung: Riesstr. 25, D-80992 M?nchen > >>> Registergericht: Amtsgericht M?nchen, HRA 95603 > >>> > >>> Komplement?rin: ORACLE Deutschland Verwaltung B.V. > >>> Hertogswetering 163/167, 3543 AS Utrecht, Niederlande > >>> Handelsregister der Handelskammer Midden-Niederlande, Nr. 30143697 > >>> Gesch?ftsf?hrer: Alexander van der Ven, Jan Schultheiss, Val Maher > >>> > >>> Oracle is committed to developing > >>> practices and products that help protect the environment > > > > > From dalibor.topic at oracle.com Wed Nov 15 08:40:55 2017 From: dalibor.topic at oracle.com (dalibor topic) Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2017 09:40:55 +0100 Subject: Oracle JDK vs. OpenJDK: font engine differences In-Reply-To: References: <4c6e4d47-0014-7f2c-0aba-9e880cd860fa@oracle.com> <1510664189.3435.1.camel@redhat.com> <4133e2a7-3e02-6c64-eaaa-a4da52df1c58@oracle.com> Message-ID: <99d1b47b-b071-58f2-9637-db0d4077f981@oracle.com> On 14.11.2017 16:06, Volker Simonis wrotE. > If you're aware of a JBS issue to remove it please post it here. Hi Volker, Sorry for the confusion caused by my mixup, and thanks to Mario for correcting it, and to Phil for providing the actual insights. I don't think that there is a JBS issue that I can point to just yet for the removal from the JDK. cheers, dalibor topic -- Dalibor Topic | Principal Product Manager Phone: +494089091214 | Mobile: +491737185961 ORACLE Deutschland B.V. & Co. KG | K?hneh?fe 5 | 22761 Hamburg ORACLE Deutschland B.V. & Co. KG Hauptverwaltung: Riesstr. 25, D-80992 M?nchen Registergericht: Amtsgericht M?nchen, HRA 95603 Komplement?rin: ORACLE Deutschland Verwaltung B.V. Hertogswetering 163/167, 3543 AS Utrecht, Niederlande Handelsregister der Handelskammer Midden-Niederlande, Nr. 30143697 Gesch?ftsf?hrer: Alexander van der Ven, Jan Schultheiss, Val Maher Oracle is committed to developing practices and products that help protect the environment From volker.simonis at gmail.com Wed Nov 15 10:23:49 2017 From: volker.simonis at gmail.com (Volker Simonis) Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2017 11:23:49 +0100 Subject: Oracle JDK vs. OpenJDK: font engine differences In-Reply-To: <99d1b47b-b071-58f2-9637-db0d4077f981@oracle.com> References: <4c6e4d47-0014-7f2c-0aba-9e880cd860fa@oracle.com> <1510664189.3435.1.camel@redhat.com> <4133e2a7-3e02-6c64-eaaa-a4da52df1c58@oracle.com> <99d1b47b-b071-58f2-9637-db0d4077f981@oracle.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Nov 15, 2017 at 9:40 AM, dalibor topic wrote: > > > On 14.11.2017 16:06, Volker Simonis wrotE. >> >> If you're aware of a JBS issue to remove it please post it here. > > > Hi Volker, > > Sorry for the confusion caused by my mixup, and thanks to Mario for > correcting it, and to Phil for providing the actual insights. > No problem. The topic is actually quite confusing :) > I don't think that there is a JBS issue that I can point to just yet for the > removal from the JDK. > > > cheers, > dalibor topic > > -- > Dalibor Topic | Principal Product Manager > Phone: +494089091214 | Mobile: +491737185961 > > > ORACLE Deutschland B.V. & Co. KG | K?hneh?fe 5 | 22761 Hamburg > > ORACLE Deutschland B.V. & Co. KG > Hauptverwaltung: Riesstr. 25, D-80992 M?nchen > Registergericht: Amtsgericht M?nchen, HRA 95603 > > Komplement?rin: ORACLE Deutschland Verwaltung B.V. > Hertogswetering 163/167, 3543 AS Utrecht, Niederlande > Handelsregister der Handelskammer Midden-Niederlande, Nr. 30143697 > Gesch?ftsf?hrer: Alexander van der Ven, Jan Schultheiss, Val Maher > > Oracle is committed to developing > practices and products that help protect the environment From holger.brands at googlemail.com Wed Nov 15 10:32:48 2017 From: holger.brands at googlemail.com (Holger Brands) Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2017 11:32:48 +0100 Subject: Is Java WebStart Deprecated? Message-ID: I just read about the deprecation of Java Webstart (JWS) and I'm shocked. I think a lot of java desktop applications are deployed via JWS being public "consumer" apps or "internal business" applications. While I agree that deploying a central JRE on a machine that JWS apps have to rely on is not the way to go, I think Oracle draws the wrong conclusions. In my opinion, the best solution would be to open source Java Webstart Technology as part of OpenJDK, where it could be enhanced to be able to package and deploy an application-private JRE or a modular runtime image together with the application bundle. I think deprecating and eventually removing Java Webstart Technology without providing a viable replacement is the worst thing to do. We need a (standard) single click installation and upgrade of java applications supporting multiple plattforms ("Build once - deploy anywhere") and I doubt native installers are the right solution for portable java apps. Please rethink your deployment strategy and don't let down all the desktop applications and developers around there. Just my two cents, Holger From daniel.latremoliere at gmail.com Wed Nov 15 11:22:46 2017 From: daniel.latremoliere at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Daniel_Latr=E9moli=E8re?=) Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2017 12:22:46 +0100 Subject: Is Java WebStart Deprecated? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <715E6873-7D94-47A0-947C-A27E99A8C7DD@gmail.com> I don't think deploying business applications on internal computers by using a public mechanism (also allowing others external applications on internal computers) is perfect. More than a future for Java WebStart, I would be possibly more interested by a future for some selected API. If using application-private JRE is done to build an internal runtime & downloader & launcher, then applications can be downloaded by using a custom descriptor, and loaded by using ModuleLayer, ModuleFinder, etc. (i.e. an old JWS application evolve to a Jigsaw layer). But, I don't see useful API for an application suite (i.e. declaring a new application in the suite and allowing some features, like [1]). Daniel. [1]: https://docs.oracle.com/javase/8/docs/jre/api/javaws/jnlp/javax/jnlp/IntegrationService.html Le 15 novembre 2017 11:32:48 GMT+01:00, Holger Brands a ?crit : >I just read about the deprecation of Java Webstart (JWS) and I'm >shocked. >I think a lot of java desktop applications are deployed via JWS being >public >"consumer" apps or "internal business" applications. > >While I agree that deploying a central JRE on a machine that JWS apps >have >to rely on >is not the way to go, I think Oracle draws the wrong conclusions. > >In my opinion, the best solution would be to open source Java Webstart >Technology as part of OpenJDK, >where it could be enhanced to be able to package and deploy an >application-private JRE or a modular runtime image >together with the application bundle. > >I think deprecating and eventually removing Java Webstart Technology >without providing a viable replacement >is the worst thing to do. >We need a (standard) single click installation and upgrade of java >applications supporting multiple plattforms ("Build once - deploy >anywhere") >and I doubt native installers are the right solution for portable java >apps. > >Please rethink your deployment strategy and don't let down all the >desktop >applications and developers around there. > >Just my two cents, >Holger From piotr.findeisen at gmail.com Thu Nov 16 09:13:51 2017 From: piotr.findeisen at gmail.com (Piotr Findeisen) Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2017 10:13:51 +0100 Subject: Is Collections.sort(List) still stable (java 8, 9..)? Message-ID: Hi, Today I realized the Collections.sort(List) ceased to be stable as of Java 8 (sort of). Although the method's documentation still promises stable sort, the implementation delegates to List.sort(Comparator) and that interface method bears no constraint that an implementation must sort stable. Is "stable" missing from List.sort's documentation? Or, instead, should it be now no longer promised by Collections.sort? (oh, no!) Or, what am i missing? Best regards, Piotr From martijnverburg at gmail.com Thu Nov 16 11:17:46 2017 From: martijnverburg at gmail.com (Martijn Verburg) Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2017 11:17:46 +0000 Subject: Is Collections.sort(List) still stable (java 8, 9..)? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Piotr, Best to ask this Q over on the core-libs mailing list. Cheers, Martijn On 16 November 2017 at 09:13, Piotr Findeisen wrote: > Hi, > > Today I realized the Collections.sort(List) ceased to be stable as of Java > 8 (sort of). > > Although the method's documentation still promises stable sort, the > implementation delegates to List.sort(Comparator) and that interface method > bears no constraint that an implementation must sort stable. > > Is "stable" missing from List.sort's documentation? > Or, instead, should it be now no longer promised by Collections.sort? (oh, > no!) > Or, what am i missing? > > Best regards, > Piotr > From dalibor.topic at oracle.com Thu Nov 16 19:04:21 2017 From: dalibor.topic at oracle.com (dalibor topic) Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2017 20:04:21 +0100 Subject: Oracle JDK 9 Update Plans, JDK 10 EA Builds and more OpenJDK Quality Outreach Message-ID: <0d9e50d3-285e-273c-f3a5-ab1184519c34@oracle.com> Hi, Please see http://mail.openjdk.java.net/pipermail/jdk-updates-dev/2017-November/000024.html for Oracle's plans for contributing to JDK 9 updates in OpenJDK. Developers can already start testing their code with JDK 10 Early Access builds from http://jdk.java.net/10/, 5 months ahead of the planned GA date of JDK 10, or their own OpenJDK builds, of course. Many thanks to those open source developers that have already started testing their projects with JDK 10, such as the developers working on JUnit, Apache Lucene and Hibernate, and in particular to the developers of projects already getting updated to work well with JDK 10, such as ByteBuddy and Apache Commons Lang. Finally, with the begin of a new JDK early access build cycle, we're also looking to add more such open source projects to the OpenJDK Quality Outreach effort. If you are a lead or core developer on a popular open source project, please join us on the quality-discuss mailing list (cc:ed), and ask to have your FOSS project added to the growing list at https://wiki.openjdk.java.net/display/quality/Quality+Outreach cheers, dalibor topic -- Dalibor Topic | Principal Product Manager Phone: +494089091214 | Mobile: +491737185961 ORACLE Deutschland B.V. & Co. KG | K?hneh?fe 5 | 22761 Hamburg ORACLE Deutschland B.V. & Co. KG Hauptverwaltung: Riesstr. 25, D-80992 M?nchen Registergericht: Amtsgericht M?nchen, HRA 95603 Komplement?rin: ORACLE Deutschland Verwaltung B.V. Hertogswetering 163/167, 3543 AS Utrecht, Niederlande Handelsregister der Handelskammer Midden-Niederlande, Nr. 30143697 Gesch?ftsf?hrer: Alexander van der Ven, Jan Schultheiss, Val Maher Oracle is committed to developing practices and products that help protect the environment From volker.simonis at gmail.com Tue Nov 21 13:35:00 2017 From: volker.simonis at gmail.com (Volker Simonis) Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2017 14:35:00 +0100 Subject: Status of "Project Duke" Message-ID: Hi Jeff, "Project Duke" was approved in April 2017 but until now it only has an empty repository and an empty mailing list with not a single message. Is this project still active? I'd expected the repo would at least contain a clone of the corresponding Kenai repository as announced in your CFV mail. The original Kenai repo is not accessible any more and I wonder if that material is still available somewhere? Thank you and best regards, Volker On Thu, Apr 6, 2017 at 5:11 PM, Jeff Dinkins wrote: > > I hereby propose the creation of Project Duke, with myself as the > Lead and the Core Libraries and Web groups as sponsoring groups. > > In accordance with the OpenJDK guidelines [1], this project will > provide a location for Duke graphics to reside. Duke is the Java > mascot, which was open sourced by Sun on November 13th 2006. > > About the Lead: Jeff Dinkins (OpenJDK username: jeff) is a JDK 9 > Committer, and has had experinece drawing Duke for 15+ years. > > The initial Committers will be: > > * James Gosling > ? Jasper Potts > * Jeff Dinkins > > The project will host at least the following mailing list: > > * duke-dev for developers & aspiring graphics artists > > The initial ?source" of this project will be based on a clone of the > existing (but soon to disappear) repo on Kenai [2]. > > Votes are due by April 21st, 2017. > > Only current OpenJDK Members [3] are eligible to vote on this motion. > Votes must be cast in the open on the discuss list. Replying to this > message is sufficient if your mail program honors the Reply-To header. > > For Lazy Consensus voting instructions, see [4]. > > > [1] http://openjdk.java.net/projects/#new-project > > [2] https://duke.kenai.com > > [3] http://openjdk.java.net/census#members > > [4] http://openjdk.java.net/projects/#new-project-vote > From david.holmes at oracle.com Tue Nov 21 21:46:02 2017 From: david.holmes at oracle.com (David Holmes) Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2017 07:46:02 +1000 Subject: Voting definitions Message-ID: "In the consensus methods the possible votes are Yes, Veto, and Abstain." Is not-voting implicitly counted as an Abstain, or is Abstain an explicit vote of Abstain? Just wondering how the vote tally should be presented as we seem to have differing views on this. Thanks, David From mark.reinhold at oracle.com Tue Nov 21 22:01:01 2017 From: mark.reinhold at oracle.com (mark.reinhold at oracle.com) Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2017 14:01:01 -0800 Subject: Voting definitions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20171121140101.688274654@eggemoggin.niobe.net> 2017/11/21 13:46:02 -0800, david.holmes at oracle.com: > "In the consensus methods the possible votes are Yes, Veto, and Abstain." > > Is not-voting implicitly counted as an Abstain, or is Abstain an > explicit vote of Abstain? In the OpenJDK Bylaws, abstain is meant to be an explicit vote of "Abstain". - Mark From forax at univ-mlv.fr Tue Nov 28 09:32:52 2017 From: forax at univ-mlv.fr (Remi Forax) Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2017 10:32:52 +0100 (CET) Subject: OpenJDK Governing Board Minutes: 2017/3/23, 2017/8/24 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1080589384.874761.1511861572305.JavaMail.zimbra@u-pem.fr> Thanks Iris. R?mi ----- Mail original ----- > De: "Iris Clark" > ?: announce at openjdk.java.net > Envoy?: Jeudi 23 Novembre 2017 03:17:44 > Objet: OpenJDK Governing Board Minutes: 2017/3/23, 2017/8/24 > The minutes of the OpenJDK Governing Board's meetings on 23 March and > 24 August are now available: > > http://openjdk.java.net/groups/gb/minutes/2017-03-23 > http://openjdk.java.net/groups/gb/minutes/2017-08-24 > > Thanks, > Iris