From fweimer at redhat.com Mon Dec 7 11:46:04 2020 From: fweimer at redhat.com (Florian Weimer) Date: Mon, 07 Dec 2020 12:46:04 +0100 Subject: OpenJDK bug system accounts Message-ID: <87k0ttkfer.fsf@oldenburg2.str.redhat.com> I'd like to get an OpenJDK bug system account for our tzdata maintainer, because that will allow us to collaborate more effectively on Java issues related to time zone updates. Is there a process for requesting such accounts? Red Hat is an OCA signatory, so that part shouldn't be an issue. Thanks, Florian -- Red Hat GmbH, https://de.redhat.com/ , Registered seat: Grasbrunn, Commercial register: Amtsgericht Muenchen, HRB 153243, Managing Directors: Charles Cachera, Brian Klemm, Laurie Krebs, Michael O'Neill From aph at redhat.com Mon Dec 7 16:44:55 2020 From: aph at redhat.com (Andrew Haley) Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2020 16:44:55 +0000 Subject: OpenJDK bug system accounts In-Reply-To: <87k0ttkfer.fsf@oldenburg2.str.redhat.com> References: <87k0ttkfer.fsf@oldenburg2.str.redhat.com> Message-ID: <708147f5-0cdc-fafc-fea8-b544f33c3068@redhat.com> On 07/12/2020 11:46, Florian Weimer wrote: > I'd like to get an OpenJDK bug system account for our tzdata maintainer, > because that will allow us to collaborate more effectively on Java > issues related to time zone updates. > > Is there a process for requesting such accounts? Red Hat is an OCA > signatory, so that part shouldn't be an issue. OpenJDK authors get accounts with full access. Once someone has contributed a few fixes they can become an author. -- Andrew Haley (he/him) Java Platform Lead Engineer Red Hat UK Ltd. https://keybase.io/andrewhaley EAC8 43EB D3EF DB98 CC77 2FAD A5CD 6035 332F A671 From sirinath1978m at gmail.com Thu Dec 10 17:13:37 2020 From: sirinath1978m at gmail.com (Suminda Sirinath Salpitikorala Dharmasena) Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2020 22:43:37 +0530 Subject: WebAssembly as Meta-Language, Java-As-WebAssembly by Ben L. Titzer Message-ID: Came across this interesting write up: https://docs.google.com/document/d/14T8RPgQKztURiHmzyP_Ju2S9nrIZWDaAb8eSx3NiiYw/ From info at j-kuhn.de Mon Dec 14 16:11:20 2020 From: info at j-kuhn.de (Johannes Kuhn) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2020 17:11:20 +0100 Subject: Old OCA use with GitHub/Poject Skara Message-ID: Back in Nov 21, 2019 I signed the OCA, but I did not supply a username. Now I tried to create a draft PR[1], but the bridgekeeper bot doesn't recognize me as OCA signer. It supplied instructions for the following cases: * Not already signed the OCA: Not applicable, as I already signed it. [2] * If I'm already an Author, Committer or Reviewer: Not applicable, as I did not reach that yet. * If the OCA was signed by my employer: Not applicable, as I did sign it myself. Anyway, I left a /signed comment, and now it tells me to wait until my OCA is processed (it already is). So in all, I'm now in a limbo - what is the right thing to do now? - Johannes [1]: https://github.com/openjdk/jdk/pull/1767 [2]: https://www.oracle.com/technical-resources/oracle-contributor-agreement.html From scott at adligo.com Tue Dec 15 04:48:07 2020 From: scott at adligo.com (Scott Morgan) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2020 22:48:07 -0600 Subject: Native Java? Message-ID: Hi All, I would like to hackup the open jdk to start a native executable that is essentially java but with a different native binary name. Essentially it's everything java in the open jdk is but with a different OS process name. I looked into Graal per Heinz, but I am looking to keep features like Class.forName("Foo"). Where is the best overview of the open jdk, and what other mail groups would you all suggest in this endeavour? -- Regards, Scott Morgan President & CEO Adligo Inc http://www.adligo.com https://www.linkedin.com/in/scott-morgan-21739415 A+ Better Business Bureau Rating https://github.com/adligo By Appointment Only: 1-866-968-1893 Ex 101 scott at adligo.com skype:adligo1?call Send Me Files Securely: *https://www.sendthisfile.com/f.jsp?id=ewOnyeFQM18IDRf7MMIdolfI * From fweimer at redhat.com Tue Dec 15 11:00:57 2020 From: fweimer at redhat.com (Florian Weimer) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2020 12:00:57 +0100 Subject: Native Java? In-Reply-To: (Scott Morgan's message of "Mon, 14 Dec 2020 22:48:07 -0600") References: Message-ID: <871rfr9vva.fsf@oldenburg2.str.redhat.com> * Scott Morgan: > I would like to hackup the open jdk to start a native executable that is > essentially java but with a different native binary name. Essentially it's > everything java in the open jdk is but with a different OS process name. If you want to supply your own main program, you should consider using the invocation API: Thanks, Florian -- Red Hat GmbH, https://de.redhat.com/ , Registered seat: Grasbrunn, Commercial register: Amtsgericht Muenchen, HRB 153243, Managing Directors: Charles Cachera, Brian Klemm, Laurie Krebs, Michael O'Neill From aph at redhat.com Tue Dec 15 11:36:42 2020 From: aph at redhat.com (Andrew Haley) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2020 11:36:42 +0000 Subject: Native Java? In-Reply-To: <871rfr9vva.fsf@oldenburg2.str.redhat.com> References: <871rfr9vva.fsf@oldenburg2.str.redhat.com> Message-ID: On 15/12/2020 11:00, Florian Weimer wrote: > * Scott Morgan: > >> I would like to hackup the open jdk to start a native executable that is >> essentially java but with a different native binary name. Essentially it's >> everything java in the open jdk is but with a different OS process name. > > If you want to supply your own main program, you should consider using > the invocation API: Also, ISTM that the jpackage program does what the OP wants. -- Andrew Haley (he/him) Java Platform Lead Engineer Red Hat UK Ltd. https://keybase.io/andrewhaley EAC8 43EB D3EF DB98 CC77 2FAD A5CD 6035 332F A671 From dalibor.topic at oracle.com Tue Dec 15 12:56:07 2020 From: dalibor.topic at oracle.com (Dalibor Topic) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2020 13:56:07 +0100 Subject: Old OCA use with GitHub/Poject Skara In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Johannes, you've done the right thing by reaching out to the list ;) I'll send a verification e-mail to the e-mail provided on the OCA, and once you reply, your GitHub account will be marked as verified. cheers, dalibor topic On 14.12.2020 17:11, Johannes Kuhn wrote: > Back in Nov 21, 2019 I signed the OCA, but I did not supply a username. > > Now I tried to create a draft PR[1], but the bridgekeeper bot doesn't > recognize me as OCA signer. > > It supplied instructions for the following cases: > * Not already signed the OCA: Not applicable, as I already signed it. [2] > * If I'm already an Author, Committer or Reviewer: Not applicable, as I > did not reach that yet. > * If the OCA was signed by my employer: Not applicable, as I did sign it > myself. > > Anyway, I left a /signed comment, and now it tells me to wait until my > OCA is processed (it already is). > So in all, I'm now in a limbo - what is the right thing to do now? > > - Johannes > > [1]: https://github.com/openjdk/jdk/pull/1767 > [2]: > https://www.oracle.com/technical-resources/oracle-contributor-agreement.html > > -- Dalibor Topic Consulting Product Manager Phone: +494089091214 , Mobile: +491737185961 , Video: dalibor.topic at oracle.com Oracle Global Services Germany GmbH Hauptverwaltung: Riesstr. 25, D-80992 M?nchen Registergericht: Amtsgericht M?nchen, HRB 246209 Gesch?ftsf?hrer: Ralf Herrmann From magnus.ihse.bursie at oracle.com Tue Dec 15 22:00:30 2020 From: magnus.ihse.bursie at oracle.com (Magnus Ihse Bursie) Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2020 23:00:30 +0100 Subject: Old OCA use with GitHub/Poject Skara In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <296e7e9a-dd11-96af-1ffc-5183391a0df1@oracle.com> On 2020-12-14 17:11, Johannes Kuhn wrote: > Back in Nov 21, 2019 I signed the OCA, but I did not supply a username. > > Now I tried to create a draft PR[1], but the bridgekeeper bot doesn't > recognize me as OCA signer. > > It supplied instructions for the following cases: > * Not already signed the OCA: Not applicable, as I already signed it. [2] > * If I'm already an Author, Committer or Reviewer: Not applicable, as > I did not reach that yet. > * If the OCA was signed by my employer: Not applicable, as I did sign > it myself. Sounds like the informational text provided by the bot needs to have a fourth case: "If you have already signed the OCA, but not provided a GitHub user name, nor have at least OpenJDK Author status, please ". Dalibor, what would the recommended course of action be? Write "/signed" as a pull request comment, even if there is no github user name associated with the OCA? Modify "/signed" so it takes an argument with the email the OCA was registered under, so you can verify? /Magnus > > Anyway, I left a /signed comment, and now it tells me to wait until my > OCA is processed (it already is). > So in all, I'm now in a limbo - what is the right thing to do now? > > - Johannes > > [1]: https://github.com/openjdk/jdk/pull/1767 > [2]: > https://www.oracle.com/technical-resources/oracle-contributor-agreement.html > From dalibor.topic at oracle.com Wed Dec 16 13:47:46 2020 From: dalibor.topic at oracle.com (Dalibor Topic) Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2020 14:47:46 +0100 Subject: Old OCA use with GitHub/Poject Skara In-Reply-To: <296e7e9a-dd11-96af-1ffc-5183391a0df1@oracle.com> References: <296e7e9a-dd11-96af-1ffc-5183391a0df1@oracle.com> Message-ID: On 15.12.2020 23:00, Magnus Ihse Bursie wrote: > On 2020-12-14 17:11, Johannes Kuhn wrote: > Dalibor, what would the recommended course of action be? Write "/signed" > as a pull request comment, even if there is no github user name > associated with the OCA? Yes, please. Typically it's easy to look at an account and figure out which OCA it belongs to, and to do the necessary steps to verify that. In the rare cases where that's not the case, I simply leave a comment for the submitter to contact me directly, and that usually happens within a day or two. cheers, dalibor topic -- Dalibor Topic Consulting Product Manager Phone: +494089091214 , Mobile: +491737185961 , Video: dalibor.topic at oracle.com Oracle Global Services Germany GmbH Hauptverwaltung: Riesstr. 25, D-80992 M?nchen Registergericht: Amtsgericht M?nchen, HRB 246209 Gesch?ftsf?hrer: Ralf Herrmann From yadonn.wang at huawei.com Sat Dec 26 09:03:58 2020 From: yadonn.wang at huawei.com (wangyadong (E)) Date: Sat, 26 Dec 2020 09:03:58 +0000 Subject: openjdk riscv64 port Message-ID: Hi, ALL, We have implemented a riscv port of OpenJDK11u, to be precise, RV64G(IMAFD), with a template interpreter and C1/C2 backend. And so far, most of jtreg tests and SpecJVM2008 have passed on qemu riscv64 and the Hifive unleashed board. The code repo locates in https://gitee.com/openeuler/bishengjdk-11/tree/risc-v/ or you can find it in the riscv software list of https://github.com/riscv/riscv-software-list. In the meantime, we are also developing a riscv port of the jdk-master version. Is the community interested in this? We hope very much to create a OpenJDK riscv-port project and make it stable before upstreaming. Yadong Wang Compilers & Programming Languages Lab Huawei Technologies Co.,Ltd. From sirinath1978m at gmail.com Sun Dec 27 08:17:18 2020 From: sirinath1978m at gmail.com (Suminda Sirinath Salpitikorala Dharmasena) Date: Sun, 27 Dec 2020 13:47:18 +0530 Subject: Migrate to Mailing Lists to Modern Forum Software Message-ID: Hello, Is it possible to migrate the mailing lists to a modern forum software like: - https://flarum.org/ or - https://www.discourse.org/ Discourse is widely used and has a very modern look. Flarum is not that mature but looks like it is better UX. Also this has a permissive license. Also maybe the community can contribute by driving it direction to suit the OpenJDK forum needs and stability. Since the code was migrated to GitHub maybe the forums also can be migrated as well. Suminda From hufeng1987 at gmail.com Sun Dec 27 09:11:26 2020 From: hufeng1987 at gmail.com (Netroby) Date: Sun, 27 Dec 2020 17:11:26 +0800 Subject: Migrate to Mailing Lists to Modern Forum Software In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I guess it's hard to do this. But shall we move change to Github discussion. https://docs.github.com/en/free-pro-team at latest/github/building-a-strong-community/creating-a-team-discussion The Pros: 1. do not need to maintain a server, no operation cost 2. github success community, and account . 3. open source to the public, almost everyone. 4. Easy to integrate with the github ecosystem. 5. User friendly UI and technology Now we have our openjdk move to the github. Why not go far ? Github discussion seems to fit the need. Appreciate your time. ---------------------------- Netroby Suminda Sirinath Salpitikorala Dharmasena ?2020?12?27??? ??4:18??? > > Hello, > > Is it possible to migrate the mailing lists to a modern forum software like: > - https://flarum.org/ or > - https://www.discourse.org/ > > Discourse is widely used and has a very modern look. > > Flarum is not that mature but looks like it is better UX. Also this has a > permissive license. Also maybe the community can contribute by driving it > direction to suit the OpenJDK forum needs and stability. > > Since the code was migrated to GitHub maybe the forums also can be migrated > as well. > > Suminda From sirinath1978m at gmail.com Sun Dec 27 10:34:01 2020 From: sirinath1978m at gmail.com (Suminda Sirinath Salpitikorala Dharmasena) Date: Sun, 27 Dec 2020 16:04:01 +0530 Subject: Migrate to Mailing Lists to Modern Forum Software In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I guess moving to GitHub discussions would be good option to consider. The Wikis can be migrated to GitHub Wikis and the site openjdk.java.net ca move to GitHub pages. From zoltan.jose at gmail.com Sun Dec 27 12:49:12 2020 From: zoltan.jose at gmail.com (Timmy Jose) Date: Sun, 27 Dec 2020 18:19:12 +0530 Subject: Migrate to Mailing Lists to Modern Forum Software In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I think this is a most welcome suggestion. GIthub discussions alone would be a big step up in my opinion. On Sun, Dec 27, 2020 at 4:06 PM Suminda Sirinath Salpitikorala Dharmasena < sirinath1978m at gmail.com> wrote: > I guess moving to GitHub discussions would be good option to consider. > > The Wikis can be migrated to GitHub Wikis and the site openjdk.java.net ca > move to GitHub pages. > From aph at redhat.com Sun Dec 27 15:45:04 2020 From: aph at redhat.com (Andrew Haley) Date: Sun, 27 Dec 2020 15:45:04 +0000 Subject: Migrate to Mailing Lists to Modern Forum Software In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <955fc2c7-b5e1-1407-915e-77d22f306d46@redhat.com> On 12/27/20 8:17 AM, Suminda Sirinath Salpitikorala Dharmasena wrote: > Is it possible to migrate the mailing lists to a modern forum software like: > - https://flarum.org/ or > - https://www.discourse.org/ I really hope not. Email is an open standard, supported everywhere by hundreds of tools of different kinds, and doesn't rely on a single provider. It can be viewed by many clients, customized to each individual user, and easily archived, searched and aggregated. Just say no to "modern forum software." It sucks rocks, especially Slack. -- Andrew Haley (he/him) Java Platform Lead Engineer Red Hat UK Ltd. https://keybase.io/andrewhaley EAC8 43EB D3EF DB98 CC77 2FAD A5CD 6035 332F A671 From johan at lodgon.com Sun Dec 27 15:45:11 2020 From: johan at lodgon.com (Johan Vos) Date: Sun, 27 Dec 2020 16:45:11 +0100 Subject: Migrate to Mailing Lists to Modern Forum Software In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Interesting ideas. One of the major requirements imho is the permanent availability of the threads. This is what is really great about the mailing lists on OpenJDK: there are often issues that refer to a mail thread, and even if that is 10 years old, we can still refer to it. I don't know if that is the case with Github discussions too? - Johan Op zo 27 dec. 2020 om 13:53 schreef Timmy Jose : > I think this is a most welcome suggestion. GIthub discussions alone would > be a big step up in my opinion. > > On Sun, Dec 27, 2020 at 4:06 PM Suminda Sirinath Salpitikorala Dharmasena < > sirinath1978m at gmail.com> wrote: > > > I guess moving to GitHub discussions would be good option to consider. > > > > The Wikis can be migrated to GitHub Wikis and the site openjdk.java.net > ca > > move to GitHub pages. > > > From aph at redhat.com Sun Dec 27 15:46:50 2020 From: aph at redhat.com (Andrew Haley) Date: Sun, 27 Dec 2020 15:46:50 +0000 Subject: openjdk riscv64 port In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4da80e7f-0de5-1fde-d3bb-c882727ffabf@redhat.com> On 12/26/20 9:03 AM, wangyadong (E) wrote: > In the meantime, we are also developing a riscv port of the jdk-master version. Is the community interested in this? We hope very much to create a OpenJDK riscv-port project and make it stable before upstreaming. Sounds good. I think the porters group would be happy to sponsor this. Head over to porters-dev at openjdk.java.net and we'll make plans. -- Andrew Haley (he/him) Java Platform Lead Engineer Red Hat UK Ltd. https://keybase.io/andrewhaley EAC8 43EB D3EF DB98 CC77 2FAD A5CD 6035 332F A671 From neugens.limasoftware at gmail.com Sun Dec 27 19:28:40 2020 From: neugens.limasoftware at gmail.com (Mario Torre) Date: Sun, 27 Dec 2020 20:28:40 +0100 Subject: Migrate to Mailing Lists to Modern Forum Software In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Please no. We don't need more github in our workflow and we don't need other platforms for discussions. Everywhere something other than mailing lists are used discussions tend to be hidden and difficult to follow, with threads impossible to reconstruct (and my opinion is that this is true also for github generated emails from PRs). Cheers, Mario Il giorno dom 27 dic 2020 alle ore 09:17 Suminda Sirinath Salpitikorala Dharmasena ha scritto: > > Hello, > > Is it possible to migrate the mailing lists to a modern forum software like: > - https://flarum.org/ or > - https://www.discourse.org/ > > Discourse is widely used and has a very modern look. > > Flarum is not that mature but looks like it is better UX. Also this has a > permissive license. Also maybe the community can contribute by driving it > direction to suit the OpenJDK forum needs and stability. > > Since the code was migrated to GitHub maybe the forums also can be migrated > as well. > > Suminda -- pgp key: http://subkeys.pgp.net/ PGP Key ID: 80F240CF Fingerprint: BA39 9666 94EC 8B73 27FA FC7C 4086 63E3 80F2 40CF Java Champion - Blog: http://neugens.wordpress.com - Twitter: @neugens Proud GNU Classpath developer: http://www.classpath.org/ OpenJDK: http://openjdk.java.net/projects/caciocavallo/ Please, support open standards: http://endsoftpatents.org/ From hufeng1987 at gmail.com Mon Dec 28 01:58:45 2020 From: hufeng1987 at gmail.com (Netroby) Date: Mon, 28 Dec 2020 09:58:45 +0800 Subject: Migrate to Mailing Lists to Modern Forum Software In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Don't be afraid of new technology. Github discussion send thread, post via email also. It's just a mail list (if you like mail lists). and also provided user an mail list archives web UI All the threads and posts you can see there and your mailbox. Not quite more big changes. don't be afraid. You lost nothing. everything is working just fine. Appreciate your time. ---------------------------- Netroby Mario Torre ?2020?12?28??? ??3:29??? > > Please no. > > We don't need more github in our workflow and we don't need other > platforms for discussions. > > Everywhere something other than mailing lists are used discussions > tend to be hidden and difficult to follow, with threads impossible to > reconstruct (and my opinion is that this is true also for github > generated emails from PRs). > > Cheers, > Mario > > Il giorno dom 27 dic 2020 alle ore 09:17 Suminda Sirinath > Salpitikorala Dharmasena ha scritto: > > > > Hello, > > > > Is it possible to migrate the mailing lists to a modern forum software like: > > - https://flarum.org/ or > > - https://www.discourse.org/ > > > > Discourse is widely used and has a very modern look. > > > > Flarum is not that mature but looks like it is better UX. Also this has a > > permissive license. Also maybe the community can contribute by driving it > > direction to suit the OpenJDK forum needs and stability. > > > > Since the code was migrated to GitHub maybe the forums also can be migrated > > as well. > > > > Suminda > > > > -- > pgp key: http://subkeys.pgp.net/ PGP Key ID: 80F240CF > Fingerprint: BA39 9666 94EC 8B73 27FA FC7C 4086 63E3 80F2 40CF > > Java Champion - Blog: http://neugens.wordpress.com - Twitter: @neugens > Proud GNU Classpath developer: http://www.classpath.org/ > OpenJDK: http://openjdk.java.net/projects/caciocavallo/ > > Please, support open standards: > http://endsoftpatents.org/ From neugens.limasoftware at gmail.com Mon Dec 28 08:57:33 2020 From: neugens.limasoftware at gmail.com (Mario Torre) Date: Mon, 28 Dec 2020 09:57:33 +0100 Subject: Migrate to Mailing Lists to Modern Forum Software In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks for your input, but I?m not convinced. Cheers, Mario On Mon 28. Dec 2020 at 02:59, Netroby wrote: > Don't be afraid of new technology. > Github discussion send thread, post via email also. > > It's just a mail list (if you like mail lists). and also provided user > an mail list archives web UI > > All the threads and posts you can see there and your mailbox. > > Not quite more big changes. don't be afraid. > You lost nothing. > everything is working just fine. > > > > Appreciate your time. > ---------------------------- > Netroby > > Mario Torre ?2020?12?28??? ??3:29??? > > > > Please no. > > > > We don't need more github in our workflow and we don't need other > > platforms for discussions. > > > > Everywhere something other than mailing lists are used discussions > > tend to be hidden and difficult to follow, with threads impossible to > > reconstruct (and my opinion is that this is true also for github > > generated emails from PRs). > > > > Cheers, > > Mario > > > > Il giorno dom 27 dic 2020 alle ore 09:17 Suminda Sirinath > > Salpitikorala Dharmasena ha scritto: > > > > > > Hello, > > > > > > Is it possible to migrate the mailing lists to a modern forum software > like: > > > - https://flarum.org/ or > > > - https://www.discourse.org/ > > > > > > Discourse is widely used and has a very modern look. > > > > > > Flarum is not that mature but looks like it is better UX. Also this > has a > > > permissive license. Also maybe the community can contribute by driving > it > > > direction to suit the OpenJDK forum needs and stability. > > > > > > Since the code was migrated to GitHub maybe the forums also can be > migrated > > > as well. > > > > > > Suminda > > > > > > > > -- > > pgp key: http://subkeys.pgp.net/ PGP Key ID: 80F240CF > > Fingerprint: BA39 9666 94EC 8B73 27FA FC7C 4086 63E3 80F2 40CF > > > > Java Champion - Blog: http://neugens.wordpress.com - Twitter: @neugens > > Proud GNU Classpath developer: http://www.classpath.org/ > > OpenJDK: http://openjdk.java.net/projects/caciocavallo/ > > > > Please, support open standards: > > http://endsoftpatents.org/ > -- pgp key: http://subkeys.pgp.net/ PGP Key ID: 80F240CF Fingerprint: BA39 9666 94EC 8B73 27FA FC7C 4086 63E3 80F2 40CF Java Champion - Blog: http://neugens.wordpress.com - Twitter: @neugens Proud GNU Classpath developer: http://www.classpath.org/ OpenJDK: http://openjdk.java.net/projects/caciocavallo/ Please, support open standards: http://endsoftpatents.org/ From hufeng1987 at gmail.com Mon Dec 28 09:29:27 2020 From: hufeng1987 at gmail.com (Netroby) Date: Mon, 28 Dec 2020 17:29:27 +0800 Subject: Migrate to Mailing Lists to Modern Forum Software In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I am not surprised. I am trying hard to teach my grandfather to use the iPhone. He did not well understand how to use it . People do not quickly accept new things. we need more time. Maybe in 100 year later we can see new communication tools or software. Be patient Appreciate your time. ---------------------------- Netroby Timmy Jose ?2020?12?28??? ??5:13??? > > Indeed. It's ridiculous that in 2020/1, email is still being used as the main form of communication. It's about as free as any other medium today which means not at all. > > If anything, email absolutely sucks as a discussion medium. No wonder the rest of the world thinks the Java world is moribund and decrepit. > > The Rust team, for all its own issues, is excellent when it comes to adopting the right technology for the right job. > > Just giving my views reading the objections to this thread, please don't bother trying to change my mind. > > On Mon, 28 Dec 2020, 07:31 Netroby, wrote: >> >> Don't be afraid of new technology. >> Github discussion send thread, post via email also. >> >> It's just a mail list (if you like mail lists). and also provided user >> an mail list archives web UI >> >> All the threads and posts you can see there and your mailbox. >> >> Not quite more big changes. don't be afraid. >> You lost nothing. >> everything is working just fine. >> >> >> >> Appreciate your time. >> ---------------------------- >> Netroby >> >> Mario Torre ?2020?12?28??? ??3:29??? >> > >> > Please no. >> > >> > We don't need more github in our workflow and we don't need other >> > platforms for discussions. >> > >> > Everywhere something other than mailing lists are used discussions >> > tend to be hidden and difficult to follow, with threads impossible to >> > reconstruct (and my opinion is that this is true also for github >> > generated emails from PRs). >> > >> > Cheers, >> > Mario >> > >> > Il giorno dom 27 dic 2020 alle ore 09:17 Suminda Sirinath >> > Salpitikorala Dharmasena ha scritto: >> > > >> > > Hello, >> > > >> > > Is it possible to migrate the mailing lists to a modern forum software like: >> > > - https://flarum.org/ or >> > > - https://www.discourse.org/ >> > > >> > > Discourse is widely used and has a very modern look. >> > > >> > > Flarum is not that mature but looks like it is better UX. Also this has a >> > > permissive license. Also maybe the community can contribute by driving it >> > > direction to suit the OpenJDK forum needs and stability. >> > > >> > > Since the code was migrated to GitHub maybe the forums also can be migrated >> > > as well. >> > > >> > > Suminda >> > >> > >> > >> > -- >> > pgp key: http://subkeys.pgp.net/ PGP Key ID: 80F240CF >> > Fingerprint: BA39 9666 94EC 8B73 27FA FC7C 4086 63E3 80F2 40CF >> > >> > Java Champion - Blog: http://neugens.wordpress.com - Twitter: @neugens >> > Proud GNU Classpath developer: http://www.classpath.org/ >> > OpenJDK: http://openjdk.java.net/projects/caciocavallo/ >> > >> > Please, support open standards: >> > http://endsoftpatents.org/ From adinn at redhat.com Mon Dec 28 10:02:55 2020 From: adinn at redhat.com (Andrew Dinn) Date: Mon, 28 Dec 2020 10:02:55 +0000 Subject: Migrate to Mailing Lists to Modern Forum Software In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9957aad2-6737-c718-2a86-db9fde2dde35@redhat.com> On 28/12/2020 01:58, Netroby wrote: > Don't be afraid of new technology. > Github discussion send thread, post via email also. Please don't jump to mischaracterise people's legitimate objections. Assuming that Mario's concerns arise out of fear rather than experience comes across as insensitive and patronising. > It's just a mail list (if you like mail lists). and also provided user > an mail list archives web UI That's just not so. github threads are very different to a mail list, most significantly in the way they are linearized by being presented and continued (by some or, frequently, all parties to a discussion) in a single chain of comments in one browser window. That has a subtle but deeply significant effect on the nature of the discourse, forcing long and complex discussion (ones that regularly, albeit infrequently, happen in this project and often matter the most) into a distorted and hard-to-follow/extend flow. It also has an effect on one's ability to reconstruct a dialogue after the event, which is very important to the project, this being the record of our decision-making process. I don't believe the ability to use email interoperably with github makes up for that shortfall. I don't make that claim lightly or without experience, having regularly used github as the project lead on Byteman for almost 10 years now, as a contributor to the GraalVM project for over 4 years and as a reviewer for OpenJDK since we switched to github. It is especially the last experience where the reliance on github discussions bites most. Complex reviews require a great deal of detailed negotiation and I have been very aware of the limitations github has created in that regard. Reviewers have sometimes managed to negotiate reviews via email only (or mostly), avoiding some of the problems the github web UI creates. However, in many cases the mix of some communications sent via github and others sent via email has jumbled up independnt elements of a discussion and made it harder to respond to and follow-up different concerns. > All the threads and posts you can see there and your mailbox. See above. > Not quite more big changes. don't be afraid. > You lost nothing. > everything is working just fine. Well, respectfully, it's not working just fine. It's working, yes, but only because we can escape to email when we really need to (and even then not as well as it should). I am happy to acknowledge that we gained some great things when we moved to github (thanks to the worthy efforts of the Skara team!) but my experience is that we also ceded significant quality in our discussion to what you present as 'mere matters of format'. And like I said, please cut the crap about emotional responses. regards, Andrew Dinn ----------- Red Hat Distinguished Engineer Red Hat UK Ltd Registered in England and Wales under Company Registration No. 03798903 Directors: Michael Cunningham, Michael ("Mike") O'Neill From fw at deneb.enyo.de Mon Dec 28 10:47:54 2020 From: fw at deneb.enyo.de (Florian Weimer) Date: Mon, 28 Dec 2020 11:47:54 +0100 Subject: Migrate to Mailing Lists to Modern Forum Software In-Reply-To: <9957aad2-6737-c718-2a86-db9fde2dde35@redhat.com> (Andrew Dinn's message of "Mon, 28 Dec 2020 10:02:55 +0000") References: <9957aad2-6737-c718-2a86-db9fde2dde35@redhat.com> Message-ID: <874kk6urz9.fsf@mid.deneb.enyo.de> * Andrew Dinn: > That's just not so. github threads are very different to a mail list, > most significantly in the way they are linearized by being presented and > continued (by some or, frequently, all parties to a discussion) in a > single chain of comments in one browser window. That has a subtle but > deeply significant effect on the nature of the discourse, forcing long > and complex discussion (ones that regularly, albeit infrequently, happen > in this project and often matter the most) into a distorted and > hard-to-follow/extend flow. It also has an effect on one's ability to > reconstruct a dialogue after the event, which is very important to the > project, this being the record of our decision-making process. On the other hand, few people seem to use (or know of the existence of) threaded email readers. For example, I believe the Gmail web frontend is not thread-based. Gmail's duplicate suppression (which can't be switched off) and Mailman's version of it (which is at least configurable, but often switched on by default) tend to break threading because of missing messages. I think that's rather unfortunate because as you write, email threading is such a useful tool. But if only a small fraction of readers actually use it, it's not a strong argument for email as a communication channel. From neugens.limasoftware at gmail.com Mon Dec 28 10:52:28 2020 From: neugens.limasoftware at gmail.com (Mario Torre) Date: Mon, 28 Dec 2020 11:52:28 +0100 Subject: Migrate to Mailing Lists to Modern Forum Software In-Reply-To: <874kk6urz9.fsf@mid.deneb.enyo.de> References: <9957aad2-6737-c718-2a86-db9fde2dde35@redhat.com> <874kk6urz9.fsf@mid.deneb.enyo.de> Message-ID: Hi Florian, Yes, Gmail interface linearise threads but still keep a correct order of reference for the messages. If you reply to one comment earlier in the discussion you still see your comment in context. Also when using an external reader the thread is of the messages are preserved so you still see the discussion correctly threaded. Slack and GitHub discussions are linear by design and all the discussion appears compacted in one single thread no matter where you read it from. Cheers, Mario On Mon 28. Dec 2020 at 11:47, Florian Weimer wrote: > * Andrew Dinn: > > > That's just not so. github threads are very different to a mail list, > > most significantly in the way they are linearized by being presented and > > continued (by some or, frequently, all parties to a discussion) in a > > single chain of comments in one browser window. That has a subtle but > > deeply significant effect on the nature of the discourse, forcing long > > and complex discussion (ones that regularly, albeit infrequently, happen > > in this project and often matter the most) into a distorted and > > hard-to-follow/extend flow. It also has an effect on one's ability to > > reconstruct a dialogue after the event, which is very important to the > > project, this being the record of our decision-making process. > > On the other hand, few people seem to use (or know of the existence > of) threaded email readers. For example, I believe the Gmail web > frontend is not thread-based. Gmail's duplicate suppression (which > can't be switched off) and Mailman's version of it (which is at least > configurable, but often switched on by default) tend to break > threading because of missing messages. > > I think that's rather unfortunate because as you write, email > threading is such a useful tool. But if only a small fraction of > readers actually use it, it's not a strong argument for email as a > communication channel. > -- pgp key: http://subkeys.pgp.net/ PGP Key ID: 80F240CF Fingerprint: BA39 9666 94EC 8B73 27FA FC7C 4086 63E3 80F2 40CF Java Champion - Blog: http://neugens.wordpress.com - Twitter: @neugens Proud GNU Classpath developer: http://www.classpath.org/ OpenJDK: http://openjdk.java.net/projects/caciocavallo/ Please, support open standards: http://endsoftpatents.org/ From rkennke at redhat.com Mon Dec 28 11:09:47 2020 From: rkennke at redhat.com (Roman Kennke) Date: Mon, 28 Dec 2020 12:09:47 +0100 Subject: Migrate to Mailing Lists to Modern Forum Software In-Reply-To: <9957aad2-6737-c718-2a86-db9fde2dde35@redhat.com> References: <9957aad2-6737-c718-2a86-db9fde2dde35@redhat.com> Message-ID: <74efbf80-17f6-5f33-1218-a12d037d5296@redhat.com> I haven't quite understood what we are discussing about. - It is only about non-code-review discussions, right? Because we already can (and do) code-reviews in Github (with 2-way-interfaces to email). This has some advantages (namely, I like that code and review are in a single place), and disadvantages (as you said, the 2-way-email interface tends to linearize discussions) - What would be the *advantage* of a switch to Github or other 'forum' software for non-review discussions? So far I haven't heard much except 'because we can'... Roman > On 28/12/2020 01:58, Netroby wrote: >> Don't be afraid of new technology. >> Github discussion send thread, post via email also. > > Please don't jump to mischaracterise people's legitimate objections. > Assuming that Mario's concerns arise out of fear rather than experience > comes across as insensitive and patronising. > >> It's just a mail list (if you like mail lists). and also provided user >> an mail list archives web UI > > That's just not so. github threads are very different to a mail list, > most significantly in the way they are linearized by being presented and > continued (by some or, frequently, all parties to a discussion) in a > single chain of comments in one browser window. That has a subtle but > deeply significant effect on the nature of the discourse, forcing long > and complex discussion (ones that regularly, albeit infrequently, happen > in this project and often matter the most) into a distorted and > hard-to-follow/extend flow. It also has an effect on one's ability to > reconstruct a dialogue after the event, which is very important to the > project, this being the record of our decision-making process. > > I don't believe the ability to use email interoperably with github makes > up for that shortfall. I don't make that claim lightly or without > experience, having regularly used github as the project lead on Byteman > for almost 10 years now, as a contributor to the GraalVM project for > over 4 years and as a reviewer for OpenJDK since we switched to github. > It is especially the last experience where the reliance on github > discussions bites most. Complex reviews require a great deal of detailed > negotiation and I have been very aware of the limitations github has > created in that regard. Reviewers have sometimes managed to negotiate > reviews via email only (or mostly), avoiding some of the problems the > github web UI creates. However, in many cases the mix of some > communications sent via github and others sent via email has jumbled up > independnt elements of a discussion and made it harder to respond to and > follow-up different concerns. > >> All the threads and posts you can see there and your mailbox. > > See above. > >> Not quite more big changes. don't be afraid. >> You lost nothing. >> everything is working just fine. > > Well, respectfully, it's not working just fine. It's working, yes, but > only because we can escape to email when we really need to (and even > then not as well as it should). I am happy to acknowledge that we gained > some great things when we moved to github (thanks to the worthy efforts > of the Skara team!) but my experience is that we also ceded significant > quality in our discussion to what you present as 'mere matters of format'. > > And like I said, please cut the crap about emotional responses. > > regards, > > > Andrew Dinn > ----------- > Red Hat Distinguished Engineer > Red Hat UK Ltd > Registered in England and Wales under Company Registration No. 03798903 > Directors: Michael Cunningham, Michael ("Mike") O'Neill > From fcassia at gmail.com Mon Dec 28 11:22:38 2020 From: fcassia at gmail.com (Fernando Cassia) Date: Mon, 28 Dec 2020 08:22:38 -0300 Subject: Migrate to Mailing Lists to Modern Forum Software In-Reply-To: <955fc2c7-b5e1-1407-915e-77d22f306d46@redhat.com> References: <955fc2c7-b5e1-1407-915e-77d22f306d46@redhat.com> Message-ID: On Sun., 27 Dec. 2020, 12:47 Andrew Haley, wrote: > > I really hope not. Email is an open standard, supported everywhere by > hundreds of tools of different kinds, and doesn't rely on a single > provider. It can be viewed by many clients, customized to each individual > user, and easily archived, searched and aggregated. > > Just say no to "modern forum software." It sucks rocks, especially > Slack. > +1. What Andrew said. FC From some-java-user-99206970363698485155 at vodafonemail.de Mon Dec 28 17:34:32 2020 From: some-java-user-99206970363698485155 at vodafonemail.de (some-java-user-99206970363698485155 at vodafonemail.de) Date: Mon, 28 Dec 2020 18:34:32 +0100 (CET) Subject: Migrate to Mailing Lists to Modern Forum Software In-Reply-To: <74efbf80-17f6-5f33-1218-a12d037d5296@redhat.com> References: <9957aad2-6737-c718-2a86-db9fde2dde35@redhat.com> <74efbf80-17f6-5f33-1218-a12d037d5296@redhat.com> Message-ID: <79120497.231717.1609176872267@mail.vodafone.de> In this complete discussion it is important to consider from which standpoint you are discussing: There are probably two extrema: - OpenJDK contributors - "Drive-by" visitors / contributors I would assume most of the replies opposing mailing list alternatives come from OpenJDK contributors: - they are familiar with mailing lists - have been subscribed for a long time - are using their company e-mail address (which is public) - use an e-mail client which supports e-mail threads; or have the respective add-ons adding support for that Personally I would consider myself to come from the second category, the "drive-by" visitor (or rather in general interested in the OpenJDK), and I would assume some of the users here arguing for a mailing list alternative come from the same or a similar category. The main characteristics are: - they are not familiar with the concept of mailing lists - they have not been subscriped to the mailing list yet (- they do not have a company e-mail address, or they do not want to write from that) - their e-mail client and/or e-mail provider does not support threads by default - they do not have their e-mail client set up to write in plain text, and their client is not wrapping after X characters automatically Keep in mind that most subscribers are likely OpenJDK contributors and therefore whatever image you will get from this discussion is heavily biased. This might be acceptable if you are not actively aiming for new contributors from outside, but I hope that is not the case. >From the list above some of the pain points might already be obvious, but I will sumarize them anyways: - https://mail.openjdk.java.net/mailman/listinfo provides no search interface; for someone unfamiliar with mailing lists, finding a previous message is pretty difficult - Mailing lists make it difficult to respond to past discussions if you were not subscribed back then - Viewing discussion threads is difficult if your client does not support it natively Keep in mind that the user might just want to ask a single question, telling them to install add-on X, which might then not work or require extra configuration, is rather discouraging. - Without company e-mail address you might not want your private e-mail address to become public. One reason might be because mailing lists are for sure a great source for spam mail authors. Another might be that you want to hide your name from Open Source projects (further reading [0]). Creating a separate e-mail address is cumbersome, and the mailing list might even block your e-mail address or domain for whatever spam-related reasons. - When you subscribe to a mailing list you receive all mails even though you might only be interested in one specific topic. Having to configure mail filters just to receive updates for one single message really does not justify this trouble. - Responding to messages on mailing lists can be confusing. For my first message on the mailing lists by accident I only responded to the person answering me, but not to the mailing list. It is also not surprising that a related general Stack Exchange question ([1]) exists; reading the comments under the question and answers is really worth it. Threaded discussions (other than ones being limited to a single thread level) can also have their disadvantages; [2] might be interesting to read. For example here my response would fit to anyone arguing against a mailing list change, it would not have mattered to whom I have responded. As side notes: Since it has been mentioned before; Slack *does* support threads, but only one level deep. (Though I am not advocating for using Slack instead) Similarly Discourse allows replying [3] and creating a new topic as reply [4]. If you still decide that you need a mailing list, then could you please at least investigate switching to a more modern web interface for it, e.g. HyperKitty ([5])? And since this discussion has already drifted towards a GitHub critique: I don't really understand why you have chosen GitHub over a self-hosted GitLab instance (you likely have your reasons): - You are complaining about missing threads, yet GitLab has a Threads feature [6] - You are censoring any GitHub comment from someone who has not signed the OpenJDK Terms of Use. This is really discouraging. A self-hosted GitLab instance where you can control who can create an account would likely have been better suited. Then it would have been clearer that you do not accept comments from external users. In general there are multiple things which are quite discouraging for someone who wants to contribute to the OpenJDK. But that is a different topic and would make this discussion drift off-topic. Kind regards [0] https://medium.com/@fommil/hide-your-real-name-in-open-source-3d67e74a8c56 [1] https://softwareengineering.stackexchange.com/questions/71148/why-do-programmers-still-use-mailing-lists [2] https://blog.codinghorror.com/web-discussions-flat-by-design/ [3] https://meta.discourse.org/t/discourse-new-user-guide/96331#replying [4] https://meta.discourse.org/t/how-to-reply-as-topic/59891/8 [5] https://docs.mailman3.org/projects/hyperkitty/en/latest/ [6] https://docs.gitlab.com/ee/user/discussions/ From some-java-user-99206970363698485155 at vodafonemail.de Mon Dec 28 17:36:51 2020 From: some-java-user-99206970363698485155 at vodafonemail.de (some-java-user-99206970363698485155 at vodafonemail.de) Date: Mon, 28 Dec 2020 18:36:51 +0100 (CET) Subject: Is SharedSecrets thread-safe? Message-ID: <642437057.231739.1609177011812@mail.vodafone.de> Hello, the class `jdk.internal.access.SharedSecrets` provides getter methods which all look similar to this: ``` if (static_field == null) { initialize(); } return static_field; ``` However, neither the static fields are `volatile` nor are the getter methods synchronized. So if my understanding of the Java Memory Model is correct, the compiler is free to reorder the two static field reads. So it is in theory possible that the first read yields a non-`null` value, but the second read yields a `null` value which leads to incorrect behavior (for further reading [1]). It is probably rather unlikely that this actually happens because `SharedSecrets` is in most cases accessed from static initializers (which are only run once) and because not many classes access the same `SharedSecrets` fields. Is this analysis correct or did I forget to consider parts of the Memory Model logic, or is there some JVM magic I am missing? Kind regards [1] https://shipilev.net/blog/2016/close-encounters-of-jmm-kind/#wishful-benign-is-resilient From some-java-user-99206970363698485155 at vodafonemail.de Mon Dec 28 17:53:38 2020 From: some-java-user-99206970363698485155 at vodafonemail.de (some-java-user-99206970363698485155 at vodafonemail.de) Date: Mon, 28 Dec 2020 18:53:38 +0100 (CET) Subject: Migrate to Mailing Lists to Modern Forum Software In-Reply-To: <79120497.231717.1609176872267@mail.vodafone.de> References: <9957aad2-6737-c718-2a86-db9fde2dde35@redhat.com> <74efbf80-17f6-5f33-1218-a12d037d5296@redhat.com> <79120497.231717.1609176872267@mail.vodafone.de> Message-ID: <1170780572.231929.1609178018470@mail.vodafone.de> I just noticed that Discourse's quote feature is also rather advanced. See for example [1]: That message quotes a piece of a previous message. Within the message you can either expand the complete previous message where the quote came from (which then highlights the quoted piece within the text), or jump to the message where the quote came from. [1] https://meta.discourse.org/t/allow-only-x-consecutive-replies-in-the-same-topic/69756/20 > > In this complete discussion it is important to consider from which standpoint > you are discussing: > There are probably two extrema: > - OpenJDK contributors > - "Drive-by" visitors / contributors > > I would assume most of the replies opposing mailing list alternatives come from > OpenJDK contributors: > - they are familiar with mailing lists > - have been subscribed for a long time > - are using their company e-mail address (which is public) > - use an e-mail client which supports e-mail threads; or have the respective > add-ons adding support for that > > Personally I would consider myself to come from the second category, the > "drive-by" visitor (or rather in general interested in the OpenJDK), and > I would assume some of the users here arguing for a mailing list alternative > come from the same or a similar category. The main characteristics are: > - they are not familiar with the concept of mailing lists > - they have not been subscriped to the mailing list yet > (- they do not have a company e-mail address, or they do not want to write > from that) > - their e-mail client and/or e-mail provider does not support threads by > default > - they do not have their e-mail client set up to write in plain text, and > their client is not wrapping after X characters automatically > > Keep in mind that most subscribers are likely OpenJDK contributors and therefore > whatever image you will get from this discussion is heavily biased. This might > be acceptable if you are not actively aiming for new contributors from outside, > but I hope that is not the case. > > From the list above some of the pain points might already be obvious, but I will > sumarize them anyways: > - https://mail.openjdk.java.net/mailman/listinfo provides no search interface; > for someone unfamiliar with mailing lists, finding a previous message is > pretty difficult > - Mailing lists make it difficult to respond to past discussions if you were > not subscribed back then > - Viewing discussion threads is difficult if your client does not support it > natively > Keep in mind that the user might just want to ask a single question, telling > them to install add-on X, which might then not work or require extra > configuration, is rather discouraging. > - Without company e-mail address you might not want your private e-mail address > to become public. One reason might be because mailing lists are for sure a > great source for spam mail authors. Another might be that you want to hide > your name from Open Source projects (further reading [0]). > Creating a separate e-mail address is cumbersome, and the mailing list might > even block your e-mail address or domain for whatever spam-related reasons. > - When you subscribe to a mailing list you receive all mails even though you > might only be interested in one specific topic. Having to configure mail > filters just to receive updates for one single message really does not justify > this trouble. > - Responding to messages on mailing lists can be confusing. For my first message > on the mailing lists by accident I only responded to the person answering me, > but not to the mailing list. > > It is also not surprising that a related general Stack Exchange question ([1]) > exists; reading the comments under the question and answers is really worth it. > > Threaded discussions (other than ones being limited to a single thread level) > can also have their disadvantages; [2] might be interesting to read. > For example here my response would fit to anyone arguing against a mailing > list change, it would not have mattered to whom I have responded. > > As side notes: Since it has been mentioned before; Slack *does* support > threads, but only one level deep. (Though I am not advocating for using > Slack instead) > Similarly Discourse allows replying [3] and creating a new topic as reply [4]. > > If you still decide that you need a mailing list, then could you please > at least investigate switching to a more modern web interface for it, > e.g. HyperKitty ([5])? > > And since this discussion has already drifted towards a GitHub critique: > I don't really understand why you have chosen GitHub over a self-hosted > GitLab instance (you likely have your reasons): > - You are complaining about missing threads, yet GitLab has a Threads feature [6] > - You are censoring any GitHub comment from someone who has not signed the OpenJDK > Terms of Use. This is really discouraging. > A self-hosted GitLab instance where you can control who can create an > account would likely have been better suited. Then it would have been > clearer that you do not accept comments from external users. > > In general there are multiple things which are quite discouraging for > someone who wants to contribute to the OpenJDK. But that is a different > topic and would make this discussion drift off-topic. > > Kind regards > > [0] https://medium.com/@fommil/hide-your-real-name-in-open-source-3d67e74a8c56 > [1] https://softwareengineering.stackexchange.com/questions/71148/why-do-programmers-still-use-mailing-lists > [2] https://blog.codinghorror.com/web-discussions-flat-by-design/ > [3] https://meta.discourse.org/t/discourse-new-user-guide/96331#replying > [4] https://meta.discourse.org/t/how-to-reply-as-topic/59891/8 > [5] https://docs.mailman3.org/projects/hyperkitty/en/latest/ > [6] https://docs.gitlab.com/ee/user/discussions/ From david.holmes at oracle.com Mon Dec 28 22:42:08 2020 From: david.holmes at oracle.com (David Holmes) Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2020 08:42:08 +1000 Subject: Is SharedSecrets thread-safe? In-Reply-To: <642437057.231739.1609177011812@mail.vodafone.de> References: <642437057.231739.1609177011812@mail.vodafone.de> Message-ID: <7c48dbf6-0030-e4ab-574a-3cdf351dab3b@oracle.com> Please take this to the core-libs-dev mailing list, the discuss list is not for these kinds of technical discussions. Thanks, David On 29/12/2020 3:36 am, some-java-user-99206970363698485155 at vodafonemail.de wrote: > Hello, > the class `jdk.internal.access.SharedSecrets` provides getter methods which all look similar to this: > ``` > if (static_field == null) { > initialize(); > } > return static_field; > ``` > > However, neither the static fields are `volatile` nor are the getter methods synchronized. So if my > understanding of the Java Memory Model is correct, the compiler is free to reorder the two static > field reads. So it is in theory possible that the first read yields a non-`null` value, but the > second read yields a `null` value which leads to incorrect behavior (for further reading [1]). > > It is probably rather unlikely that this actually happens because `SharedSecrets` is in most cases > accessed from static initializers (which are only run once) and because not many classes access the > same `SharedSecrets` fields. > > Is this analysis correct or did I forget to consider parts of the Memory Model logic, or is there > some JVM magic I am missing? > > Kind regards > > [1] https://shipilev.net/blog/2016/close-encounters-of-jmm-kind/#wishful-benign-is-resilient > From sirinath1978m at gmail.com Tue Dec 29 03:22:06 2020 From: sirinath1978m at gmail.com (Suminda Sirinath Salpitikorala Dharmasena) Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2020 08:52:06 +0530 Subject: Migrate to Mailing Lists to Modern Forum Software In-Reply-To: <1170780572.231929.1609178018470@mail.vodafone.de> References: <9957aad2-6737-c718-2a86-db9fde2dde35@redhat.com> <74efbf80-17f6-5f33-1218-a12d037d5296@redhat.com> <79120497.231717.1609176872267@mail.vodafone.de> <1170780572.231929.1609178018470@mail.vodafone.de> Message-ID: Flarum (https://flarum.org/) also provides a similar quoting facility. On Mon, 28 Dec 2020 at 23:26, < some-java-user-99206970363698485155 at vodafonemail.de> wrote: > I just noticed that Discourse's quote feature is also rather advanced. See > for > example [1]: > That message quotes a piece of a previous message. Within the message you > can > either expand the complete previous message where the quote came from > (which > then highlights the quoted piece within the text), or jump to the message > where > the quote came from. > > [1] > https://meta.discourse.org/t/allow-only-x-consecutive-replies-in-the-same-topic/69756/20 > > > > > In this complete discussion it is important to consider from which > standpoint > > you are discussing: > > There are probably two extrema: > > - OpenJDK contributors > > - "Drive-by" visitors / contributors > > > > I would assume most of the replies opposing mailing list alternatives > come from > > OpenJDK contributors: > > - they are familiar with mailing lists > > - have been subscribed for a long time > > - are using their company e-mail address (which is public) > > - use an e-mail client which supports e-mail threads; or have the > respective > > add-ons adding support for that > > > > Personally I would consider myself to come from the second category, the > > "drive-by" visitor (or rather in general interested in the OpenJDK), and > > I would assume some of the users here arguing for a mailing list > alternative > > come from the same or a similar category. The main characteristics are: > > - they are not familiar with the concept of mailing lists > > - they have not been subscriped to the mailing list yet > > (- they do not have a company e-mail address, or they do not want to > write > > from that) > > - their e-mail client and/or e-mail provider does not support threads by > > default > > - they do not have their e-mail client set up to write in plain text, and > > their client is not wrapping after X characters automatically > > > > Keep in mind that most subscribers are likely OpenJDK contributors and > therefore > > whatever image you will get from this discussion is heavily biased. This > might > > be acceptable if you are not actively aiming for new contributors from > outside, > > but I hope that is not the case. > > > > From the list above some of the pain points might already be obvious, > but I will > > sumarize them anyways: > > - https://mail.openjdk.java.net/mailman/listinfo provides no search > interface; > > for someone unfamiliar with mailing lists, finding a previous message > is > > pretty difficult > > - Mailing lists make it difficult to respond to past discussions if you > were > > not subscribed back then > > - Viewing discussion threads is difficult if your client does not > support it > > natively > > Keep in mind that the user might just want to ask a single question, > telling > > them to install add-on X, which might then not work or require extra > > configuration, is rather discouraging. > > - Without company e-mail address you might not want your private e-mail > address > > to become public. One reason might be because mailing lists are for > sure a > > great source for spam mail authors. Another might be that you want to > hide > > your name from Open Source projects (further reading [0]). > > Creating a separate e-mail address is cumbersome, and the mailing list > might > > even block your e-mail address or domain for whatever spam-related > reasons. > > - When you subscribe to a mailing list you receive all mails even though > you > > might only be interested in one specific topic. Having to configure > mail > > filters just to receive updates for one single message really does not > justify > > this trouble. > > - Responding to messages on mailing lists can be confusing. For my first > message > > on the mailing lists by accident I only responded to the person > answering me, > > but not to the mailing list. > > > > It is also not surprising that a related general Stack Exchange question > ([1]) > > exists; reading the comments under the question and answers is really > worth it. > > > > Threaded discussions (other than ones being limited to a single thread > level) > > can also have their disadvantages; [2] might be interesting to read. > > For example here my response would fit to anyone arguing against a > mailing > > list change, it would not have mattered to whom I have responded. > > > > As side notes: Since it has been mentioned before; Slack *does* support > > threads, but only one level deep. (Though I am not advocating for using > > Slack instead) > > Similarly Discourse allows replying [3] and creating a new topic as > reply [4]. > > > > If you still decide that you need a mailing list, then could you please > > at least investigate switching to a more modern web interface for it, > > e.g. HyperKitty ([5])? > > > > And since this discussion has already drifted towards a GitHub critique: > > I don't really understand why you have chosen GitHub over a self-hosted > > GitLab instance (you likely have your reasons): > > - You are complaining about missing threads, yet GitLab has a Threads > feature [6] > > - You are censoring any GitHub comment from someone who has not signed > the OpenJDK > > Terms of Use. This is really discouraging. > > A self-hosted GitLab instance where you can control who can create an > > account would likely have been better suited. Then it would have been > > clearer that you do not accept comments from external users. > > > > In general there are multiple things which are quite discouraging for > > someone who wants to contribute to the OpenJDK. But that is a different > > topic and would make this discussion drift off-topic. > > > > Kind regards > > > > [0] > https://medium.com/@fommil/hide-your-real-name-in-open-source-3d67e74a8c56 > > [1] > https://softwareengineering.stackexchange.com/questions/71148/why-do-programmers-still-use-mailing-lists > > [2] https://blog.codinghorror.com/web-discussions-flat-by-design/ > > [3] https://meta.discourse.org/t/discourse-new-user-guide/96331#replying > > [4] https://meta.discourse.org/t/how-to-reply-as-topic/59891/8 > > [5] https://docs.mailman3.org/projects/hyperkitty/en/latest/ > > [6] https://docs.gitlab.com/ee/user/discussions/ > From sanhong.lsh at alibaba-inc.com Tue Dec 29 13:27:00 2020 From: sanhong.lsh at alibaba-inc.com (=?UTF-8?B?5p2O5LiJ57qiKOS4iee6oik=?=) Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2020 21:27:00 +0800 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?=E7=AD=94=E5=A4=8D:_openjdk_riscv64_port?= In-Reply-To: <400e78fa7d134243ad00e0d5edd62943@huawei.com> References: <4da80e7f-0de5-1fde-d3bb-c882727ffabf@redhat.com> <400e78fa7d134243ad00e0d5edd62943@huawei.com> Message-ID: <00a501d6dde6$4a328610$de979230$@alibaba-inc.com> Hello everyone, I am pleased to see the Linux/RISC-v port of OpenJDK. Thanks for Huawei's work! We(Alibaba) are willing to co-work with the community and contribute to the effort. Thanks! Sanhong -----????----- ???: wangyadong (E) ????: 2020?12?29? 9:44 ???: porters-dev at openjdk.java.net ??: RE: openjdk riscv64 port Hi, We implemented a RV64G port of OpenJDK11u(TemplateInterpreter, C1 and C2) and open source to https://gitee.com/openeuler/bishengjdk-11/tree/risc-v/ . Would the community like to help us to create a project? And then we can promote it stable with the community. Yadong Wang Huawei Technologies Co., Ltd. -----Original Message----- From: discuss [mailto:discuss-retn at openjdk.java.net] On Behalf Of Andrew Haley Sent: Sunday, December 27, 2020 11:47 PM To: discuss at openjdk.java.net Subject: Re: openjdk riscv64 port On 12/26/20 9:03 AM, wangyadong (E) wrote: > In the meantime, we are also developing a riscv port of the jdk-master version. Is the community interested in this? We hope very much to create a OpenJDK riscv-port project and make it stable before upstreaming. Sounds good. I think the porters group would be happy to sponsor this. Head over to porters-dev at openjdk.java.net and we'll make plans. -- Andrew Haley (he/him) Java Platform Lead Engineer Red Hat UK Ltd. https://keybase.io/andrewhaley EAC8 43EB D3EF DB98 CC77 2FAD A5CD 6035 332F A671 From some-java-user-99206970363698485155 at vodafonemail.de Tue Dec 29 13:48:51 2020 From: some-java-user-99206970363698485155 at vodafonemail.de (some-java-user-99206970363698485155 at vodafonemail.de) Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2020 14:48:51 +0100 (CET) Subject: Is SharedSecrets thread-safe? In-Reply-To: <7c48dbf6-0030-e4ab-574a-3cdf351dab3b@oracle.com> References: <642437057.231739.1609177011812@mail.vodafone.de> <7c48dbf6-0030-e4ab-574a-3cdf351dab3b@oracle.com> Message-ID: <316542789.239033.1609249731366@mail.vodafone.de> Sorry, have written it to that mailing list now as well: https://mail.openjdk.java.net/pipermail/core-libs-dev/2020-December/072798.html > Please take this to the core-libs-dev mailing list, the discuss list is > not for these kinds of technical discussions. > > Thanks, > David From victorwssilva at gmail.com Tue Dec 29 16:08:58 2020 From: victorwssilva at gmail.com (Victor Williams Stafusa da Silva) Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2020 13:08:58 -0300 Subject: Migrate to Mailing Lists to Modern Forum Software In-Reply-To: References: <9957aad2-6737-c718-2a86-db9fde2dde35@redhat.com> <74efbf80-17f6-5f33-1218-a12d037d5296@redhat.com> <79120497.231717.1609176872267@mail.vodafone.de> <1170780572.231929.1609178018470@mail.vodafone.de> Message-ID: I am just an occasional lurker here. But if my opinion counts (specially as being an outsider), I think that mailing lists are extremely cumbersome. I would certainly participate a lot more if the discussions had a more modern and friendly format and I think that GitHub is very good at this. Also, this mailing list is presented in a very ugly way in most popular e-mail clients, including GMail, Hotmail and Yahoo. Perhaps it is due to all those horrible > polluting mail replies and a lot of artificially inserted line breaks in unfortunate places due to some arcane configuration rule. Surely, this is not a problem of a mailing-list concept per se, but is likely a problem of the mailing-list software. Also, I pretty much prefer discussions to be linearized. I think that tree-structure discussions are a confusing and very hard to follow mess, specially when looking for archived discussions. Further, searchability is very important, and this is something that this mailing list severely lacks. Surely, it is possible to find an specific old e-mail and refer to it if you need to, but doing that is much more harder than it could be. Also, I get some e-mails being delivery in digests of the last N recent e-mails. Answering an specific e-mail in the middle of a digest is hell. Also, answering to an older e-mail that was sent before you subscribed to the mailing list is also hell. Finally, I frequently have problems with GMail's anti-spam spuriosly marking some e-mails from mailing lists as spam when they are legitimate. This is unpredictable, confusing, frustrating and is generally unfixable by mailing lists admins. Em ter., 29 de dez. de 2020 ?s 00:24, Suminda Sirinath Salpitikorala Dharmasena escreveu: > Flarum (https://flarum.org/) also provides a similar quoting facility. > > On Mon, 28 Dec 2020 at 23:26, < > some-java-user-99206970363698485155 at vodafonemail.de> wrote: > > > I just noticed that Discourse's quote feature is also rather advanced. > See > > for > > example [1]: > > That message quotes a piece of a previous message. Within the message you > > can > > either expand the complete previous message where the quote came from > > (which > > then highlights the quoted piece within the text), or jump to the message > > where > > the quote came from. > > > > [1] > > > https://meta.discourse.org/t/allow-only-x-consecutive-replies-in-the-same-topic/69756/20 > > > > > > > > In this complete discussion it is important to consider from which > > standpoint > > > you are discussing: > > > There are probably two extrema: > > > - OpenJDK contributors > > > - "Drive-by" visitors / contributors > > > > > > I would assume most of the replies opposing mailing list alternatives > > come from > > > OpenJDK contributors: > > > - they are familiar with mailing lists > > > - have been subscribed for a long time > > > - are using their company e-mail address (which is public) > > > - use an e-mail client which supports e-mail threads; or have the > > respective > > > add-ons adding support for that > > > > > > Personally I would consider myself to come from the second category, > the > > > "drive-by" visitor (or rather in general interested in the OpenJDK), > and > > > I would assume some of the users here arguing for a mailing list > > alternative > > > come from the same or a similar category. The main characteristics are: > > > - they are not familiar with the concept of mailing lists > > > - they have not been subscriped to the mailing list yet > > > (- they do not have a company e-mail address, or they do not want to > > write > > > from that) > > > - their e-mail client and/or e-mail provider does not support threads > by > > > default > > > - they do not have their e-mail client set up to write in plain text, > and > > > their client is not wrapping after X characters automatically > > > > > > Keep in mind that most subscribers are likely OpenJDK contributors and > > therefore > > > whatever image you will get from this discussion is heavily biased. > This > > might > > > be acceptable if you are not actively aiming for new contributors from > > outside, > > > but I hope that is not the case. > > > > > > From the list above some of the pain points might already be obvious, > > but I will > > > sumarize them anyways: > > > - https://mail.openjdk.java.net/mailman/listinfo provides no search > > interface; > > > for someone unfamiliar with mailing lists, finding a previous message > > is > > > pretty difficult > > > - Mailing lists make it difficult to respond to past discussions if you > > were > > > not subscribed back then > > > - Viewing discussion threads is difficult if your client does not > > support it > > > natively > > > Keep in mind that the user might just want to ask a single question, > > telling > > > them to install add-on X, which might then not work or require extra > > > configuration, is rather discouraging. > > > - Without company e-mail address you might not want your private e-mail > > address > > > to become public. One reason might be because mailing lists are for > > sure a > > > great source for spam mail authors. Another might be that you want to > > hide > > > your name from Open Source projects (further reading [0]). > > > Creating a separate e-mail address is cumbersome, and the mailing > list > > might > > > even block your e-mail address or domain for whatever spam-related > > reasons. > > > - When you subscribe to a mailing list you receive all mails even > though > > you > > > might only be interested in one specific topic. Having to configure > > mail > > > filters just to receive updates for one single message really does > not > > justify > > > this trouble. > > > - Responding to messages on mailing lists can be confusing. For my > first > > message > > > on the mailing lists by accident I only responded to the person > > answering me, > > > but not to the mailing list. > > > > > > It is also not surprising that a related general Stack Exchange > question > > ([1]) > > > exists; reading the comments under the question and answers is really > > worth it. > > > > > > Threaded discussions (other than ones being limited to a single thread > > level) > > > can also have their disadvantages; [2] might be interesting to read. > > > For example here my response would fit to anyone arguing against a > > mailing > > > list change, it would not have mattered to whom I have responded. > > > > > > As side notes: Since it has been mentioned before; Slack *does* support > > > threads, but only one level deep. (Though I am not advocating for using > > > Slack instead) > > > Similarly Discourse allows replying [3] and creating a new topic as > > reply [4]. > > > > > > If you still decide that you need a mailing list, then could you please > > > at least investigate switching to a more modern web interface for it, > > > e.g. HyperKitty ([5])? > > > > > > And since this discussion has already drifted towards a GitHub > critique: > > > I don't really understand why you have chosen GitHub over a self-hosted > > > GitLab instance (you likely have your reasons): > > > - You are complaining about missing threads, yet GitLab has a Threads > > feature [6] > > > - You are censoring any GitHub comment from someone who has not signed > > the OpenJDK > > > Terms of Use. This is really discouraging. > > > A self-hosted GitLab instance where you can control who can create an > > > account would likely have been better suited. Then it would have been > > > clearer that you do not accept comments from external users. > > > > > > In general there are multiple things which are quite discouraging for > > > someone who wants to contribute to the OpenJDK. But that is a different > > > topic and would make this discussion drift off-topic. > > > > > > Kind regards > > > > > > [0] > > > https://medium.com/@fommil/hide-your-real-name-in-open-source-3d67e74a8c56 > > > [1] > > > https://softwareengineering.stackexchange.com/questions/71148/why-do-programmers-still-use-mailing-lists > > > [2] https://blog.codinghorror.com/web-discussions-flat-by-design/ > > > [3] > https://meta.discourse.org/t/discourse-new-user-guide/96331#replying > > > [4] https://meta.discourse.org/t/how-to-reply-as-topic/59891/8 > > > [5] https://docs.mailman3.org/projects/hyperkitty/en/latest/ > > > [6] https://docs.gitlab.com/ee/user/discussions/ > > >