Migrate to Mailing Lists to Modern Forum Software

[Roman Kennke]

I haven't quite understood what we are discussing about.

- It is only about non-code-review discussions, right? Because we 
already can (and do) code-reviews in Github (with 2-way-interfaces to 
email). This has some advantages (namely, I like that code and review 
are in a single place), and disadvantages (as you said, the 2-way-email 
interface tends to linearize discussions)

- What would be the *advantage* of a switch to Github or other 'forum' 
software for non-review discussions? So far I haven't heard much except 
'because we can'...

Roman


> On 28/12/2020 01:58, Netroby wrote:
>> Don't be afraid of new technology.
>> Github discussion send thread, post via email also.
> 
> Please don't jump to mischaracterise people's legitimate objections. 
> Assuming that Mario's concerns arise out of fear rather than experience 
> comes across as insensitive and patronising.
> 
>> It's just a mail list (if you like mail lists). and also provided user
>> an mail list archives web UI
> 
> That's just not so. github threads are very different to a mail list, 
> most significantly in the way they are linearized by being presented and 
> continued (by some or, frequently, all parties to a discussion) in a 
> single chain of comments in one browser window. That has a subtle but 
> deeply significant effect on the nature of the discourse, forcing long 
> and complex discussion (ones that regularly, albeit infrequently, happen 
> in this project and often matter the most) into a distorted and 
> hard-to-follow/extend flow. It also has an effect on one's ability to 
> reconstruct a dialogue after the event, which is very important to the 
> project, this being the record of our decision-making process.
> 
> I don't believe the ability to use email interoperably with github makes 
> up for that shortfall. I don't make that claim lightly or without 
> experience, having regularly used github as the project lead on Byteman 
> for almost 10 years now, as a contributor to the GraalVM project for 
> over 4 years and as a reviewer for OpenJDK since we switched to github. 
> It is especially the last experience where the reliance on github 
> discussions bites most. Complex reviews require a great deal of detailed 
> negotiation and I have been very aware of the limitations github has 
> created in that regard. Reviewers have sometimes managed to negotiate 
> reviews via email only (or mostly), avoiding some of the problems the 
> github web UI creates. However, in many cases the mix of some 
> communications sent via github and others sent via email has jumbled up 
> independnt elements of a discussion and made it harder to respond to and 
> follow-up different concerns.
> 
>> All the threads and posts you can see there and your mailbox.
> 
> See above.
> 
>> Not quite more big changes. don't be afraid.
>> You lost nothing.
>> everything is working just fine.
> 
> Well, respectfully, it's not working just fine. It's working, yes, but 
> only because we can escape to email when we really need to (and even 
> then not as well as it should). I am happy to acknowledge that we gained 
> some great things when we moved to github (thanks to the worthy efforts 
> of the Skara team!) but my experience is that we also ceded significant 
> quality in our discussion to what you present as 'mere matters of format'.
> 
> And like I said, please cut the crap about emotional responses.
> 
> regards,
> 
> 
> Andrew Dinn
> -----------
> Red Hat Distinguished Engineer
> Red Hat UK Ltd
> Registered in England and Wales under Company Registration No. 03798903
> Directors: Michael Cunningham, Michael ("Mike") O'Neill
>