Vetting JEP concepts?

[Andy Boothe]

Jesper, thank you for the additional context! I'll review the guide
straightaway.

Andy Boothe

On Mon, Apr 15, 2024 at 12:51 PM Jesper Wilhelmsson <
jesper.wilhelmsson at oracle.com> wrote:

> Hi Andy,
>
> No, this is not the list to discuss any ideas about changes in the JDK.
> This list is for OpenJDK Community questions. The mailing list info page
> David linked to has short summaries of what each list is supposed to be
> used for.
>
> If you intend to start contributing to OpenJDK the best place to start is
> the OpenJDK Developers' Guide: https://openjdk.org/guide/
>
> There's plenty of advice there for how to proceed if you have an idea for
> a change in the JDK. If you have trouble finding the right list for some
> change you want to discuss you can find a Code Owners list at the end of
> that guide.
>
> Best Regards,
> /Jesper
>
> On Apr 15, 2024, at 18:18, Andy Boothe <andy.boothe at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> David and Thomas,
>
> Thank you both for the timely and insightful responses! They are greatly
> appreciated! This has helped me understand the process in much more detail.
>
> > Once you find a problem, next step is to hop onto the mailing list most
> relevant to the problem, and see if others in the community feel like it is
> as big/frequent of a problem that you say it is.
>
> Great! Thank you for sharing the list!
>
> > Good -- Why is ABC done this way (again, check ABC docs before
> hand)/When I tried doing ABC, I experienced pain point XYZ
> > Bad -- ABC feels poorly designed/ABC is wrong/ABC shouldn't be done this
> way -- Understand, literal thousands of people have looked over even the
> darkest corners of the JDK.
>
> Absolutely right. I completely agree, but this is an important point that
> bears repeating. Given that Java is one of - if not the - biggest platforms
> in the world, I know the likelihood that I'm the first person to magically
> see a problem is about 0%! And it's important to pursue any pain points or
> insights I have through the lens of the entire community, knowing that many
> folks have been focusing on this stuff for much longer than it took me to
> type out any email. :)
>
> > But JEPs come with a lot of red tape and require a significant amount of
> investment from other parties. Therefore, we try to avoid JEPs if possible,
> opting instead for more low-key processes (e.g., RFEs with CSRs).
>
> Oof! I certainly didn't mean to start with the nuclear option! Clearly I
> need to re-read JEP 1 a little more closely. Thank you for pointing that
> out, Thomas!
>
> Given these answers, I have a couple more follow-up questions, then
> hopefully I can start being a little more independent:
>
> 1. To David's point, I (strongly) suspect that some/most/all of my ideas
> have been considered and discussed before on this mailing list. What is the
> best way to search the mail archives? I've done some Google searching and
> came across gmane.io and
> https://hixon10.github.io/openjdk-mailing-lists-search/. Are these the
> preferred method(s)?
> 2. Forgive me if this is a stupid question, but would this not a suitable
> mailing list to start discussion, at least for some ideas? Naturally, if my
> question is about Valhalla, then I would go to valhalla-dev, but what about
> for more general Java-level questions?
>
> Thank you again!
>
> Andy Boothe
>
> On Mon, Apr 15, 2024 at 2:30 AM Thomas Stüfe <thomas.stuefe at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Hi Andy,
>>
>> David wrote a very good answer, I just wanted to expand on the last point
>> a bit:
>>
>> JEPs are a means, not an end. One typically does not set out to write a
>> JEP. Instead, one usually starts with a problem one wants to solve and
>> discusses this on the mailing lists.
>>
>> If, during the discussion, we see that the problem fits certain criteria,
>> a JEP would be needed. But JEPs come with a lot of red tape and require a
>> significant amount of investment from other parties. Therefore, we try to
>> avoid JEPs if possible, opting instead for more low-key processes
>> (e.g., RFEs with CSRs).
>>
>> Cheers, Thomas
>>
>> On Sun, Apr 14, 2024 at 10:45 PM David Alayachew <
>> davidalayachew at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Hello Andy. Thanks for getting involved.
>>>
>>> As for how to approach, there's a few steps involved before writing up
>>> or introducing JEP drafts.
>>>
>>> First thing is to find a problem that is either big enough or frequent
>>> enough that a change makes sense. As for what a big/frequent enough problem
>>> looks like, look at some of the JEP's -- in-flight, or delivered, that
>>> address the problems.
>>>
>>> Once you find a problem, next step is to hop onto the mailing list most
>>> relevant to the problem, and see if others in the community feel like it is
>>> as big/frequent of a problem that you say it is. Here is the list of
>>> mailing lists -- https://mail.openjdk.org/mailman/listinfo
>>>
>>> And if you want some traction, maybe cross post to the Java subreddit
>>> (with mod approval beforehand!). As long as you are respectful, read the
>>> documentation so you come informed, and don't jump to conclusions, you
>>> should find helpful responses in both places. Examples below.
>>>
>>> Good -- Why is ABC done this way (again, check ABC docs before
>>> hand)/When I tried doing ABC, I experienced pain point XYZ
>>>
>>> Bad -- ABC feels poorly designed/ABC is wrong/ABC shouldn't be done this
>>> way -- Understand, literal thousands of people have looked over even the
>>> darkest corners of the JDK.
>>>
>>> If your problem finds traction, next step is bringing up ideas on how to
>>> solve it. This is not where you start typing up a JEP format. Instead,
>>> introduce a solution and see if it gets anywhere. Fair warning, this is a
>>> higher bar to reach, and is usually as far as most ideas go.
>>>
>>> If you manage to cross that bar, post again and someone here will be
>>> happy to show you next steps.
>>>
>>> Let me know if you have any questions.
>>>
>>> Thank you for reaching out!
>>> David Alayachew
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sun, Apr 14, 2024 at 12:47 PM Andy Boothe <andy.boothe at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hello,
>>>>
>>>> I have a couple of ideas for JEPs. What is the best way to vet these
>>>> concepts before I submit them to the official process? I'd like to confirm
>>>> that these ideas haven't already been entertained before (I have already
>>>> checked the existing draft JEPs), and I'd also like to make sure they are
>>>> even interesting and viable before I waste anyone's time on the official
>>>> committees.
>>>>
>>>> Thank you in advance for all feedback!
>>>>
>>>> Andy Boothe
>>>> *Email*: andy.boothe at gmail.com
>>>> *Mobile*: (979) 574-1089
>>>>
>>>
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <https://mail.openjdk.org/pipermail/discuss/attachments/20240415/de81d1c7/attachment.htm>