From steven.loomis at oracle.com Tue Sep 30 05:30:28 2014 From: steven.loomis at oracle.com (Steven R. Loomis) Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2014 22:30:28 -0700 Subject: JEP Proposal update, and JavaOne In-Reply-To: <53DC7ADB.10708@oracle.com> References: <53DC7ADB.10708@oracle.com> Message-ID: <542A3FF4.8030207@oracle.com> On 08/01/2014 10:44 PM, Steven R. Loomis wrote: > Forgot to mention! > We'll be talking about HarfBuzz at this session - if you are at JavaOne > come by! > > > https://oracleus.activeevents.com/2014/connect/sessionDetail.ww?SESSION_ID=2890 > Hello. I've updated the JEP here: http://goo.gl/n5SSMV See some of you at 9pm tomorrow in SF hopefully! Steven From dougfelt at google.com Tue Sep 30 16:19:48 2014 From: dougfelt at google.com (Doug Felt) Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2014 09:19:48 -0700 Subject: JEP Proposal update, and JavaOne In-Reply-To: <542A3FF4.8030207@oracle.com> References: <53DC7ADB.10708@oracle.com> <542A3FF4.8030207@oracle.com> Message-ID: For the JEP, I'd just like to state that 1) even when both engines support a language, the GlyphVectors output by ICU LayoutEngine and HarfBuzz will not always be the same. In particular, ICU uses 'filler glyphs' and tries to arrange the glyph to char mapping to be as exact as possible. HarfBuzz does not natively use filler glyphs or generate a close mapping, so the icu-le-hb compatibility shim generates an emulation of this. Anyone who depends in detail on the placement of filler glyphs or the glyph-to-char mapping will see changes. We expect there to be very few such clients, but they should be aware of this possibility. 2) Given that we expect few such clients, and some of them will possibly break anyway, another option is to not generate the filler glyphs at all, but instead generate HarfBuzz's native output and adjust the layers inside the JDK (not API) that consume them to use the HarfBuzz native output instead. 3) Third party clients are unable to effectively use the current glyphvector data (all that is exposed in the API) to determine the boundaries of glyph clusters, which is necessary for client layout of text on a path. If we change the GlyphVector data, we might consider reworking it so that it is useful for this purpose. On Mon, Sep 29, 2014 at 10:30 PM, Steven R. Loomis wrote: > On 08/01/2014 10:44 PM, Steven R. Loomis wrote: > > Forgot to mention! > > We'll be talking about HarfBuzz at this session - if you are at JavaOne > > come by! > > > > > > > https://oracleus.activeevents.com/2014/connect/sessionDetail.ww?SESSION_ID=2890 > > > Hello. > I've updated the JEP here: http://goo.gl/n5SSMV > > See some of you at 9pm tomorrow in SF hopefully! > > Steven > > -- Doug Felt | Software Engineer | dougfelt at google.com | 1-650-253-2089 From srl at icu-project.org Tue Sep 30 17:38:35 2014 From: srl at icu-project.org (Steven R. Loomis) Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2014 10:38:35 -0700 Subject: JEP Proposal update, and JavaOne In-Reply-To: References: <53DC7ADB.10708@oracle.com> <542A3FF4.8030207@oracle.com> Message-ID: <542AEA9B.8020803@icu-project.org> On 09/30/2014 09:19 AM, Doug Felt wrote: > For the JEP, I'd just like to state that > > 1) even when both engines support a language, the GlyphVectors output by > ICU LayoutEngine and HarfBuzz will not always be the same. In particular, > ICU uses 'filler glyphs' and tries to arrange the glyph to char mapping to > be as exact as possible. HarfBuzz does not natively use filler glyphs or > generate a close mapping, so the icu-le-hb compatibility shim generates an > emulation of this. Anyone who depends in detail on the placement of filler > glyphs or the glyph-to-char mapping will see changes. We expect there to be > very few such clients, but they should be aware of this possibility. Yes, we should note that the compatibility is not bit for bit. > > 2) Given that we expect few such clients, and some of them will possibly > break anyway, another option is to not generate the filler glyphs at all, > but instead generate HarfBuzz's native output and adjust the layers inside > the JDK (not API) that consume them to use the HarfBuzz native output > instead. I will add that to the JEP. Would you be able to file a ticket on this? (tag it 'harfbuzz') > > 3) Third party clients are unable to effectively use the current > glyphvector data (all that is exposed in the API) to determine the > boundaries of glyph clusters, which is necessary for client layout of text > on a path. If we change the GlyphVector data, we might consider reworking > it so that it is useful for this purpose. I will probably put something in like "address limitations in the GlyphVector API" Can you file a ticket on this one as well? > > On Mon, Sep 29, 2014 at 10:30 PM, Steven R. Loomis > wrote: >> On 08/01/2014 10:44 PM, Steven R. Loomis wrote: >>> Forgot to mention! >>> We'll be talking about HarfBuzz at this session - if you are at JavaOne >>> come by! >>> >>> >>> >> https://oracleus.activeevents.com/2014/connect/sessionDetail.ww?SESSION_ID=2890 >> Hello. >> I've updated the JEP here: http://goo.gl/n5SSMV >> >> See some of you at 9pm tomorrow in SF hopefully! >> >> Steven >> >> > -- IBMer but all opinions are mine. https://www.ohloh.net/accounts/srl295 // fingerprint @ https://ssl.icu-project.org/trac/wiki/Srl From dougfelt at google.com Tue Sep 30 17:43:05 2014 From: dougfelt at google.com (Doug Felt) Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2014 10:43:05 -0700 Subject: JEP Proposal update, and JavaOne In-Reply-To: <542AEA9B.8020803@icu-project.org> References: <53DC7ADB.10708@oracle.com> <542A3FF4.8030207@oracle.com> <542AEA9B.8020803@icu-project.org> Message-ID: On Tue, Sep 30, 2014 at 10:38 AM, Steven R. Loomis wrote: > On 09/30/2014 09:19 AM, Doug Felt wrote: > > For the JEP, I'd just like to state that > > > > 1) even when both engines support a language, the GlyphVectors output by > > ICU LayoutEngine and HarfBuzz will not always be the same. In > particular, > > ICU uses 'filler glyphs' and tries to arrange the glyph to char mapping > to > > be as exact as possible. HarfBuzz does not natively use filler glyphs or > > generate a close mapping, so the icu-le-hb compatibility shim generates > an > > emulation of this. Anyone who depends in detail on the placement of > filler > > glyphs or the glyph-to-char mapping will see changes. We expect there to > be > > very few such clients, but they should be aware of this possibility. > > Yes, we should note that the compatibility is not bit for bit. > > > > > 2) Given that we expect few such clients, and some of them will possibly > > break anyway, another option is to not generate the filler glyphs at all, > > but instead generate HarfBuzz's native output and adjust the layers > inside > > the JDK (not API) that consume them to use the HarfBuzz native output > > instead. > I will add that to the JEP. Would you be able to file a ticket on > this? (tag it 'harfbuzz') > > > > 3) Third party clients are unable to effectively use the current > > glyphvector data (all that is exposed in the API) to determine the > > boundaries of glyph clusters, which is necessary for client layout of > text > > on a path. If we change the GlyphVector data, we might consider reworking > > it so that it is useful for this purpose. > > I will probably put something in like "address limitations in the > GlyphVector API" > > Can you file a ticket on this one as well? > Sure. How do I file tickets again? > > > > > On Mon, Sep 29, 2014 at 10:30 PM, Steven R. Loomis < > steven.loomis at oracle.com > >> wrote: > >> On 08/01/2014 10:44 PM, Steven R. Loomis wrote: > >>> Forgot to mention! > >>> We'll be talking about HarfBuzz at this session - if you are at JavaOne > >>> come by! > >>> > >>> > >>> > >> > https://oracleus.activeevents.com/2014/connect/sessionDetail.ww?SESSION_ID=2890 > >> Hello. > >> I've updated the JEP here: http://goo.gl/n5SSMV > >> > >> See some of you at 9pm tomorrow in SF hopefully! > >> > >> Steven > >> > >> > > > > > -- > > IBMer but all opinions are mine. > https://www.ohloh.net/accounts/srl295 // fingerprint @ > https://ssl.icu-project.org/trac/wiki/Srl > > > -- Doug Felt | Software Engineer | dougfelt at google.com | 1-650-253-2089 From srl at icu-project.org Tue Sep 30 18:18:57 2014 From: srl at icu-project.org (Steven R. Loomis) Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2014 11:18:57 -0700 Subject: JEP Proposal update, and JavaOne In-Reply-To: References: <53DC7ADB.10708@oracle.com> <542A3FF4.8030207@oracle.com> <542AEA9B.8020803@icu-project.org> Message-ID: <542AF411.4000008@icu-project.org> On 09/30/2014 10:43 AM, Doug Felt wrote: > > Can you file a ticket on this one as well? > > > Sure. How do I file tickets again? > You can see HarfBuzz tickets at https://bugs.openjdk.java.net/issues/?filter=21041 If you can't log into that site (you shold be able to..) you can submit at http://bugreport.java.com/bugreport/ **and then send me the serial number it gives you**. -s -- IBMer but all opinions are mine. https://www.ohloh.net/accounts/srl295 // fingerprint @ https://ssl.icu-project.org/trac/wiki/Srl From dougfelt at google.com Tue Sep 30 18:47:12 2014 From: dougfelt at google.com (Doug Felt) Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2014 11:47:12 -0700 Subject: JEP Proposal update, and JavaOne In-Reply-To: <542AF411.4000008@icu-project.org> References: <53DC7ADB.10708@oracle.com> <542A3FF4.8030207@oracle.com> <542AEA9B.8020803@icu-project.org> <542AF411.4000008@icu-project.org> Message-ID: Filed these: https://bugs.openjdk.java.net/browse/JDK-8059499 https://bugs.openjdk.java.net/browse/JDK-8059500 On Tue, Sep 30, 2014 at 11:18 AM, Steven R. Loomis wrote: > On 09/30/2014 10:43 AM, Doug Felt wrote: > > > > Can you file a ticket on this one as well? > > > > > > Sure. How do I file tickets again? > > > You can see HarfBuzz tickets at > https://bugs.openjdk.java.net/issues/?filter=21041 > > If you can't log into that site (you shold be able to..) you can submit > at http://bugreport.java.com/bugreport/ **and then send me the serial > number it gives you**. > > -s > > -- > > IBMer but all opinions are mine. > https://www.ohloh.net/accounts/srl295 // fingerprint @ > https://ssl.icu-project.org/trac/wiki/Srl > > > -- Doug Felt | Software Engineer | dougfelt at google.com | 1-650-253-2089