Low-Overhead Heap Profiling

Robbin Ehn robbin.ehn at oracle.com
Tue May 30 12:33:06 UTC 2017


Hi Jc,

On 05/22/2017 08:47 PM, JC Beyler wrote:
> Dear all,
> 
> I have a new webrev up:
> http://cr.openjdk.java.net/~rasbold/8171119/webrev.03/

I liked this!

Two small things:

heapMonitoring.hpp
class HeapMonitoring should extend AllStatic

heapMonitoring.cpp
class MuxLocker should extend StackObj
But I think you should skip MuxLocker or push it separate generic enhancement.

Great with the jtreg test, thanks alot!

> 
> This webrev has, I hope, fixed a lot of the comments from Robbin:
>    - The casts normally are all C++ style
>    - Moved this to jdk10-hs
>       - I have not tested slowdebug yet, hopefully it does not break there
>    - Added the garbage collection system:
>       - Now live sampled allocations are tracked throughout their lifetime
>          - When GC happens, it moves the sampled allocation information to two lists: recent and frequent GC lists
>              - Those lists use the array system that the live objects were using before but have different re-use strategies
>       - Added the JVMTI API for them via a GetFrequentGarbageTraces and GetGarbageTraces
> - Both use the same JVMTI structures
>       - Added the calls to them for the test, though I've kept that test simple for now:
> http://cr.openjdk.java.net/~rasbold/8171119/webrev.03/raw_files/new/test/serviceability/jvmti/HeapMonitor/libHeapMonitor.c
>          - As I write this, I notice my webrev is missing a final change I made to the test that calls the same ReleaseTraces to each live/garbage/frequent structure. This 
> is updated in my local repo and will get in the next webrev.
> 
> Next steps for this work are:
>     - Putting the TLAB implementation (yes not forgotten ;-))
>     - Adding more testing and separate the current test system to check things a bit more thoroughly
>     - Have not tried to circumvent AsyncGetCallTrace yet
>     - Still have to double check the stack walker a bit more

Looking forward to this.

Could someone from compiler take a look please?

Thanks!

/Robbin

> 
> Happy webrev perusal!
> Jc
> 
> 
> On Tue, May 16, 2017 at 5:20 AM, Robbin Ehn <robbin.ehn at oracle.com <mailto:robbin.ehn at oracle.com>> wrote:
> 
>     Just a few answers,
> 
>     On 05/15/2017 06:48 PM, JC Beyler wrote:
> 
>         Dear all,
> 
>         I've updated the webrev to:
>         http://cr.openjdk.java.net/~rasbold/8171119/webrev.02/ <http://cr.openjdk.java.net/~rasbold/8171119/webrev.02/>
>         <http://cr.openjdk.java.net/~rasbold/8171119/webrev.02/ <http://cr.openjdk.java.net/~rasbold/8171119/webrev.02/>>
> 
> 
>     I'll look at this later, thanks!
> 
> 
>         Robbin,
>         I believe I have addressed most of your items with webrev 02:
>             - I added a JTreg test to show how it works:
>         http://cr.openjdk.java.net/~rasbold/8171119/webrev.02/raw_files/new/test/serviceability/jvmti/HeapMonitor/libHeapMonitor.c
>         <http://cr.openjdk.java.net/~rasbold/8171119/webrev.02/raw_files/new/test/serviceability/jvmti/HeapMonitor/libHeapMonitor.c>
>         <http://cr.openjdk.java.net/~rasbold/8171119/webrev.02/raw_files/new/test/serviceability/jvmti/HeapMonitor/libHeapMonitor.c
>         <http://cr.openjdk.java.net/~rasbold/8171119/webrev.02/raw_files/new/test/serviceability/jvmti/HeapMonitor/libHeapMonitor.c>>
>            - I've modified the code to use its own data structures both internally and externally, this will make it easier to move out of AsyncGetCallTrace as we move
>         forward, that is still on my TODOs
>            - I cleaned up the JVMTI API by passing a structure that handles the num_traces and put in a ReleaseTraces as well
>            - I cleaned up other issues as well.
> 
>         However, I have three questions, which are probably because I'm new in this community:
>            1) My previous webrevs were based off of JDK9 by mistake. When I took JDK10 via : hg clone http://hg.openjdk.java.net/jdk10/jdk10
>         <http://hg.openjdk.java.net/jdk10/jdk10> <http://hg.openjdk.java.net/jdk10/jdk10 <http://hg.openjdk.java.net/jdk10/jdk10>> jdk10
>                - I don't see code compatible with what you were showing (ie your patches don't make sense for that code base; ex: klass is still accessed via klass() for
>         example in collectedHeap.inline.hpp)
>                - Would you know what is the right hg clone command so we are working on the same code base?
> 
> 
>     We use jdk10-hs, e.g.
>     hg tclone http://hg.openjdk.java.net/jdk10/hs <http://hg.openjdk.java.net/jdk10/hs> 10-hs
> 
>     There is sporadic big merges going from jdk9->jdk10->jdk10-hs and jdk10-hs->jdk10, so 10 is moving...
> 
> 
>            2) You mentioned I was using os::malloc, new, NEW_C_HEAP_ARRAY; I cleaned out the os::malloc but which of the new vs NEW_C_HEAP_ARRAY should I use. It might be
>         that I don't understand when one uses one or the other but I see both used around the code base?
>              - Is it that new is to be used for anything internal and NEW_C_HEAP_ARRAY anything provided to the JVMTI users outside of the JVM?
> 
> 
>     We overload new operator when you extend correct base class, e.g. CHeapObj<mtInternal> so use 'new'
>     But for arrays you will need the macro NEW_C_HEAP_ARRAY.
> 
> 
>            3) Casts: same kind question: which should I use. The code was using a bit of everything, I'll refactor it entirely but I was not clear if I should go to C casts
>         or C++ casts as I see both in the codebase. What is the convention I should use?
> 
> 
>     Just be consist, use what suites you, C++ casts might be preferable, if we are moving towards C++11.
>     And use 'right' cast, e.g. going from Thread* to JavaThread* you should use C cast or static_cast, not reinterpret_cast I would say.
> 
> 
>         Final notes on this webrev:
>             - I am still missing:
>               - Putting a TLAB implementation so that we can compare both webrevs
>               - Have not tried to circumvent AsyncGetCallTrace
>               - Putting in the handling of GC'd objects
>               - Fix a stack walker issue I have seen, I think I know the problem and will test that theory out for the next webrev
> 
>         I will work on integrating those items for the next webrev!
> 
> 
>     Thanks!
> 
> 
>         Thanks for your help,
>         Jc
> 
>         Ps:  I tested this on a new repo:
> 
>         hg clone http://hg.openjdk.java.net/jdk10/jdk10 <http://hg.openjdk.java.net/jdk10/jdk10> <http://hg.openjdk.java.net/jdk10/jdk10
>         <http://hg.openjdk.java.net/jdk10/jdk10>> jdk10
>         ... building it
>         cd test
>         jtreg -nativepath:<path-to-jdk10>/build/linux-x86_64-normal-server-release/support/test/hotspot/jtreg/native/lib/ -jdk
>         <path-to-jdk10>/linux-x86_64-normal-server-release/images/jdk ../hotspot/test/serviceability/jvmti/HeapMonitor/
> 
> 
>     I'll test it out!
> 
>     /Robbin
> 
> 
> 
>         On Thu, May 4, 2017 at 11:21 PM, serguei.spitsyn at oracle.com <mailto:serguei.spitsyn at oracle.com> <mailto:serguei.spitsyn at oracle.com
>         <mailto:serguei.spitsyn at oracle.com>> <serguei.spitsyn at oracle.com <mailto:serguei.spitsyn at oracle.com> <mailto:serguei.spitsyn at oracle.com
>         <mailto:serguei.spitsyn at oracle.com>>> wrote:
> 
>              Robbin,
> 
>              Thank you for forwarding!
>              I will review it.
> 
>              Thanks,
>              Serguei
> 
> 
> 
>              On 5/4/17 02:13, Robbin Ehn wrote:
> 
>                  Hi,
> 
>                  To me the compiler changes looks what is expected.
>                  It would be good if someone from compiler could take a look at that.
>                  Added compiler to mail thread.
> 
>                  Also adding Serguei, It would be good with his view also.
> 
>                  My initial take on it, read through most of the code and took it for a ride.
> 
>                  ##############################
>                  - Regarding the compiler changes: I think we need the 'TLAB end' trickery (mentioned by Tony P)
>                  instead of a separate check for sampling in fast path for the final version.
> 
>                  ##############################
>                  - This patch I had to apply to get it compile on JDK 10:
> 
>                  diff -r ac3ded340b35 src/share/vm/gc/shared/collectedHeap.inline.hpp
>                  --- a/src/share/vm/gc/shared/collectedHeap.inline.hpp    Fri Apr 28 14:31:38 2017 +0200
>                  +++ b/src/share/vm/gc/shared/collectedHeap.inline.hpp    Thu May 04 10:22:56 2017 +0200
>                  @@ -87,3 +87,3 @@
>                        // support for object alloc event (no-op most of the time)
>                  -    if (klass() != NULL && klass()->name() != NULL) {
>                  +    if (klass != NULL && klass->name() != NULL) {
>                          Thread *base_thread = Thread::current();
>                  diff -r ac3ded340b35 src/share/vm/runtime/heapMonitoring.cpp
>                  --- a/src/share/vm/runtime/heapMonitoring.cpp    Fri Apr 28 14:31:38 2017 +0200
>                  +++ b/src/share/vm/runtime/heapMonitoring.cpp    Thu May 04 10:22:56 2017 +0200
>                  @@ -316,3 +316,3 @@
>                      JavaThread *thread = reinterpret_cast<JavaThread *>(Thread::current());
>                  -  assert(o->size() << LogHeapWordSize == byte_size,
>                  +  assert(o->size() << LogHeapWordSize == (long)byte_size,
>                             "Object size is incorrect.");
> 
>                  ##############################
>                  - This patch I had to apply to get it not asserting during slowdebug:
> 
>                  --- a/src/share/vm/runtime/heapMonitoring.cpp    Fri Apr 28 15:15:16 2017 +0200
>                  +++ b/src/share/vm/runtime/heapMonitoring.cpp    Thu May 04 10:24:25 2017 +0200
>                  @@ -32,3 +32,3 @@
>                    // TODO(jcbeyler): should we make this into a JVMTI structure?
>                  -struct StackTraceData {
>                  +struct StackTraceData : CHeapObj<mtInternal> {
>                      ASGCT_CallTrace *trace;
>                  @@ -143,3 +143,2 @@
>                    StackTraceStorage::StackTraceStorage() :
>                  -    _allocated_traces(new StackTraceData*[MaxHeapTraces]),
>                        _allocated_traces_size(MaxHeapTraces),
>                  @@ -147,2 +146,3 @@
>                        _allocated_count(0) {
>                  +  _allocated_traces = NEW_C_HEAP_ARRAY(StackTraceData*, MaxHeapTraces, mtInternal);
>                      memset(_allocated_traces, 0, sizeof(*_allocated_traces) * MaxHeapTraces);
>                  @@ -152,3 +152,3 @@
>                    StackTraceStorage::~StackTraceStorage() {
>                  -  delete[] _allocated_traces;
>                  +  FREE_C_HEAP_ARRAY(StackTraceData*, _allocated_traces);
>                    }
> 
>                  - Classes should extend correct base class for which type of memory is used for it e.g.: CHeapObj<mt????> or StackObj or AllStatic
>                  - The style in heapMonitoring.cpp is a bit different from normal vm-style, e.g. using C++ casts instead of C. You mix NEW_C_HEAP_ARRAY, os::malloc and new.
>                  - In jvmtiHeapTransition.hpp you use C cast instead.
> 
>                  ##############################
>                  - This patch I had apply to get traces without setting an ‘unrelated’ capability
>                  - Should this not be a new capability?
> 
>                  diff -r c02a5d8785bf src/share/vm/prims/forte.cpp
>                  --- a/src/share/vm/prims/forte.cpp    Fri Apr 28 15:15:16 2017 +0200
>                  +++ b/src/share/vm/prims/forte.cpp    Thu May 04 10:24:25 2017 +0200
>                  @@ -530,6 +530,6 @@
> 
>                  -  if (!JvmtiExport::should_post_class_load()) {
>                  +/*  if (!JvmtiExport::should_post_class_load()) {
>                        trace->num_frames = ticks_no_class_load; // -1
>                        return;
>                  -  }
>                  +  }*/
> 
>                  ##############################
>                  - forte.cpp: (I know this is not part of your changes but)
>                  find_jmethod_id_or_null give me NULL for my test.
>                  It looks like we actually want the regular jmethod_id() ?
> 
>                  Since we are the thread we are talking about (and in same ucontext) and thread is in vm and have a last java frame,
>                  I think most of the checks done in AsyncGetCallTrace is irrelevant, so you should be-able to call forte_fill_call_trace_given_top directly.
>                  But since we might need jmethod_id() if possible to avoid getting method id NULL,
>                  we need some fixes in forte code, or just do the vframStream loop inside heapMonitoring.cpp and not use forte.cpp.
> 
>                  Something like:
> 
>                     if (jthread->has_last_Java_frame()) { // just to be safe
>                       vframeStream vfst(jthread);
>                       while (!vfst.at_end()) {
>                         Method* m = vfst.method();
>                         m->jmethod_id();
>                         m->line_number_from_bci(vfst.bci());
>                         vfst.next();
>                       }
> 
>                  - This is a bit confusing in forte.cpp, trace->frames[count].lineno = bci.
>                  Line number should be m->line_number_from_bci(bci);
>                  Do the heapMonitoring suppose to trace with bci or line number?
>                  I would say bci, meaning we should either rename ASGCT_CallFrame→lineno or use another data structure which says bci.
> 
>                  ##############################
>                  - // TODO(jcbeyler): remove this extra code handling the extra trace for
>                  Please fix all these TODO's :)
> 
>                  ##############################
>                  - heapMonitoring.hpp:
>                  // TODO(jcbeyler): is this algorithm acceptable in open source?
> 
>                  Why is this comment here? What is the implication?
>                  Have you tested any simpler algorithm?
> 
>                  ##############################
>                  - Create a sanity jtreg test. (./hotspot/make/test/JtregNative.gmk for building the agent)
> 
>                  ##############################
>                  - monitoring_period vs HeapMonitorRate, pick rate or period.
> 
>                  ##############################
>                  - globals.hpp
>                  Why is MaxHeapTraces not settable/overridable from jvmti interface? That would be handy.
> 
>                  ##############################
>                  - jvmtiStackTraceData + ASGCT_CallFrame memory
>                  Are the agent suppose to loop through and free all ASGCT_CallFrame?
>                  Wouldn't it be better with some kinda protocol, like:
>                  (*jvmti)->GetLiveTraces(jvmti, &stack_traces, &num_traces);
>                  (*jvmti)->ReleaseTraces(jvmti, stack_traces, num_traces);
> 
>                  Also using another data structure that have num_traces inside it simplifies things.
>                  So I'm not convinced using the async structure is the best way forward.
> 
> 
>                  I have more questions, but I think it's better if you respond and update the code first.
> 
>                  Thanks!
> 
>                  /Robbin
> 
> 
>                  On 04/21/2017 11:34 PM, JC Beyler wrote:
> 
>                      Hi all,
> 
>                      I've added size information to the allocation sampling system. This allows the callback to remember the size of each sampled allocation.
>         http://cr.openjdk.java.net/~rasbold/8171119/webrev.01/ <http://cr.openjdk.java.net/~rasbold/8171119/webrev.01/>
>         <http://cr.openjdk.java.net/~rasbold/8171119/webrev.01/ <http://cr.openjdk.java.net/~rasbold/8171119/webrev.01/>>
> 
>                      The new webrev.01 also adds the actual heap monitoring sampling system in files:
>         http://cr.openjdk.java.net/~rasbold/8171119/webrev.01/src/share/vm/runtime/heapMonitoring.cpp.patch
>         <http://cr.openjdk.java.net/~rasbold/8171119/webrev.01/src/share/vm/runtime/heapMonitoring.cpp.patch>
>                      <http://cr.openjdk.java.net/~rasbold/8171119/webrev.01/src/share/vm/runtime/heapMonitoring.cpp.patch
>         <http://cr.openjdk.java.net/~rasbold/8171119/webrev.01/src/share/vm/runtime/heapMonitoring.cpp.patch>>
>                      and
>         http://cr.openjdk.java.net/~rasbold/8171119/webrev.01/src/share/vm/runtime/heapMonitoring.hpp.patch
>         <http://cr.openjdk.java.net/~rasbold/8171119/webrev.01/src/share/vm/runtime/heapMonitoring.hpp.patch>
>                      <http://cr.openjdk.java.net/~rasbold/8171119/webrev.01/src/share/vm/runtime/heapMonitoring.hpp.patch
>         <http://cr.openjdk.java.net/~rasbold/8171119/webrev.01/src/share/vm/runtime/heapMonitoring.hpp.patch>>
> 
>                      My next step is to add the GC part to the webrev, which will allow users to determine what objects are live and what are garbage.
> 
>                      Thanks for your attention and let me know if there are any questions!
> 
>                      Have a wonderful Friday!
>                      Jc
> 
>                      On Mon, Apr 17, 2017 at 12:37 PM, JC Beyler <jcbeyler at google.com <mailto:jcbeyler at google.com> <mailto:jcbeyler at google.com <mailto:jcbeyler at google.com>>
>         <mailto:jcbeyler at google.com <mailto:jcbeyler at google.com> <mailto:jcbeyler at google.com <mailto:jcbeyler at google.com>>>> wrote:
> 
>                           Hi all,
> 
>                           I worked on getting a few numbers for overhead and accuracy for my feature. I'm unsure if here is the right place to provide the full data, so I
>         am just
>                      summarizing
>                           here for now.
> 
>                           - Overhead of the feature
> 
>                           Using the Dacapo benchmark (http://dacapobench.org/). My initial results are that sampling provides 2.4% with a 512k sampling, 512k being our
>         default setting.
> 
>                           - Note: this was without the tradesoap, tradebeans and tomcat benchmarks since they did not work with my JDK9 (issue between Dacapo and JDK9 it seems)
>                           - I want to rerun next week to ensure number stability
> 
>                           - Accuracy of the feature
> 
>                           I wrote a small microbenchmark that allocates from two different stacktraces at a given ratio. For example, 10% of stacktrace S1 and 90% from
>         stacktrace
>                      S2. The
>                           microbenchmark was run 20 times, I averaged the results and looked for accuracy. It seems that statistically it is sound since if I allocated10%
>         S1 and 90%
>                      S2, with a
>                           sampling rate of 512k, I obtained 9.61% S1 and 90.49% S2.
> 
>                           Let me know if there are any questions on the numbers and if you'd like to see some more data.
> 
>                           Note: this was done using our internal JDK8 implementation since the webrev provided by
>         http://cr.openjdk.java.net/~rasbold/heapz/webrev.00/index.html <http://cr.openjdk.java.net/~rasbold/heapz/webrev.00/index.html>
>                      <http://cr.openjdk.java.net/~rasbold/heapz/webrev.00/index.html <http://cr.openjdk.java.net/~rasbold/heapz/webrev.00/index.html>>
>                      <http://cr.openjdk.java.net/~rasbold/heapz/webrev.00/index.html <http://cr.openjdk.java.net/~rasbold/heapz/webrev.00/index.html>
>         <http://cr.openjdk.java.net/~rasbold/heapz/webrev.00/index.html <http://cr.openjdk.java.net/~rasbold/heapz/webrev.00/index.html>>> does not yet contain the whole
>                      implementation and therefore would have been misleading.
> 
>                           Thanks,
>                           Jc
> 
> 
>                           On Tue, Apr 4, 2017 at 3:55 PM, JC Beyler <jcbeyler at google.com <mailto:jcbeyler at google.com> <mailto:jcbeyler at google.com
>         <mailto:jcbeyler at google.com>> <mailto:jcbeyler at google.com <mailto:jcbeyler at google.com> <mailto:jcbeyler at google.com <mailto:jcbeyler at google.com>>>> wrote:
> 
>                               Hi all,
> 
>                               To move the discussion forward, with Chuck Rasbold's help to make a webrev, we pushed this:
>         http://cr.openjdk.java.net/~rasbold/heapz/webrev.00/index.html <http://cr.openjdk.java.net/~rasbold/heapz/webrev.00/index.html>
>         <http://cr.openjdk.java.net/~rasbold/heapz/webrev.00/index.html <http://cr.openjdk.java.net/~rasbold/heapz/webrev.00/index.html>>
>                      <http://cr.openjdk.java.net/~rasbold/heapz/webrev.00/index.html <http://cr.openjdk.java.net/~rasbold/heapz/webrev.00/index.html>
>         <http://cr.openjdk.java.net/~rasbold/heapz/webrev.00/index.html <http://cr.openjdk.java.net/~rasbold/heapz/webrev.00/index.html>>>
>                               415 lines changed: 399 ins; 13 del; 3 mod; 51122 unchg
> 
>                               This is not a final change that does the whole proposition from the JBS entry: https://bugs.openjdk.java.net/browse/JDK-8177374
>         <https://bugs.openjdk.java.net/browse/JDK-8177374>
>                      <https://bugs.openjdk.java.net/browse/JDK-8177374 <https://bugs.openjdk.java.net/browse/JDK-8177374>>
>                      <https://bugs.openjdk.java.net/browse/JDK-8177374 <https://bugs.openjdk.java.net/browse/JDK-8177374> <https://bugs.openjdk.java.net/browse/JDK-8177374
>         <https://bugs.openjdk.java.net/browse/JDK-8177374>>>; what it does show is parts of the implementation that is
>                      proposed and hopefully can start the conversation going
>                               as I work through the details.
> 
>                               For example, the changes to C2 are done here for the allocations:
>         http://cr.openjdk.java.net/~rasbold/heapz/webrev.00/src/share/vm/opto/macro.cpp.patch
>         <http://cr.openjdk.java.net/~rasbold/heapz/webrev.00/src/share/vm/opto/macro.cpp.patch>
>                      <http://cr.openjdk.java.net/~rasbold/heapz/webrev.00/src/share/vm/opto/macro.cpp.patch
>         <http://cr.openjdk.java.net/~rasbold/heapz/webrev.00/src/share/vm/opto/macro.cpp.patch>>
>                      <http://cr.openjdk.java.net/~rasbold/heapz/webrev.00/src/share/vm/opto/macro.cpp.patch
>         <http://cr.openjdk.java.net/~rasbold/heapz/webrev.00/src/share/vm/opto/macro.cpp.patch>
>                      <http://cr.openjdk.java.net/~rasbold/heapz/webrev.00/src/share/vm/opto/macro.cpp.patch
>         <http://cr.openjdk.java.net/~rasbold/heapz/webrev.00/src/share/vm/opto/macro.cpp.patch>>>
> 
>                               Hopefully this all makes sense and thank you for all your future comments!
>                               Jc
> 
> 
>                               On Tue, Dec 13, 2016 at 1:11 PM, JC Beyler <jcbeyler at google.com <mailto:jcbeyler at google.com> <mailto:jcbeyler at google.com
>         <mailto:jcbeyler at google.com>> <mailto:jcbeyler at google.com <mailto:jcbeyler at google.com> <mailto:jcbeyler at google.com <mailto:jcbeyler at google.com>>>>
>                      wrote:
> 
>                                   Hello all,
> 
>                                   This is a follow-up from Jeremy's initial email from last year:
>         http://mail.openjdk.java.net/pipermail/serviceability-dev/2015-June/017543.html <http://mail.openjdk.java.net/pipermail/serviceability-dev/2015-June/017543.html>
>                      <http://mail.openjdk.java.net/pipermail/serviceability-dev/2015-June/017543.html
>         <http://mail.openjdk.java.net/pipermail/serviceability-dev/2015-June/017543.html>>
>                      <http://mail.openjdk.java.net/pipermail/serviceability-dev/2015-June/017543.html
>         <http://mail.openjdk.java.net/pipermail/serviceability-dev/2015-June/017543.html> <http://mail.openjdk.java.net/pipermail/serviceability-dev/2015-June/017543.html
>         <http://mail.openjdk.java.net/pipermail/serviceability-dev/2015-June/017543.html>>>
> 
>                                   I've gone ahead and started working on preparing this and Jeremy and I went down the route of actually writing it up in JEP form:
>         https://bugs.openjdk.java.net/browse/JDK-8171119 <https://bugs.openjdk.java.net/browse/JDK-8171119> <https://bugs.openjdk.java.net/browse/JDK-8171119
>         <https://bugs.openjdk.java.net/browse/JDK-8171119>>
> 
>                                   I think original conversation that happened last year in that thread still holds true:
> 
>                                     - We have a patch at Google that we think others might be interested in
>                                        - It provides a means to understand where the allocation hotspots are at a very low overhead
>                                        - Since it is at a low overhead, we can leave it on by default
> 
>                                   So I come to the mailing list with Jeremy's initial question:
>                                   "I thought I would ask if there is any interest / if I should write a JEP / if I should just forget it."
> 
>                                   A year ago, it seemed some thought it was a good idea, is this still true?
> 
>                                   Thanks,
>                                   Jc
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 


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