New informational JEP: 14: The Tip & Tail Model of Library Development

[Maurizio Cimadamore]

On 23/10/2024 15:56, Alan Snyder wrote:
> It seems that you have set up a straw man [1] here and used it to predict doom.
Uhm not sure I did that :-)
>
> I did not suggest targeting features that affect the Java data model like sealed classes, records, and pattern matching to older JDKs for exactly the reasons you mention.
> My suggestion was intended to apply to convenience features like new syntax for string literals and improved type inference, which can be defined in terms of source to source translation.

So you agree with me that what you propose will amount to cherry pick 
features.

And, since features are more often than not, inter-related, it is not 
clear to me how you draw that line. I mean, I see the line that you so 
badly want to draw - what I'm trying to say is: that line doesn't really 
exist (or is not nearly as widely applicable as you think it is).

>
> Flexible constructor bodies is a more challenging topic, and I don’t claim to know what the implications are. The motivation would be to untangle the complexity in my current code to work around the current strict requirements. The code examples you give are all changes to the compiler (and test programs), which don’t tell me anything about the impact on the runtime environment. Performing the required extensive testing on Frankenstein Java might not be that hard, if the test programs do not use other recent language features or can be altered to avoid them.

Again, you are not really arguing against what I said - you are saying 
that it will be _somebody else's job_ to do the required amount of 
testing required to make sure that you can happily use flexible 
constructor bodies in Java 8. The key question is: whose job? If the job 
falls on the same group of developers who is also trying to move Java 
forward, don't you see an issue? In the end, like many other things, 
it's a matter of deciding how to allocate a (finite) amount of resources 
at our disposal to the things in our radar.

Maurizio


>
>    Alan
>
> [1] https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man__;!!ACWV5N9M2RV99hQ!IxQbll_o6FDxAoxj7eG3LtIdih93WMdfB8o3Jm_9idBJqOGqF6kTF2KAOggyTTeMg6pLBEmmUc7ioOGeLrXVUPyQCskF$
>
>
>> On Oct 23, 2024, at 4:12 AM, Maurizio Cimadamore <maurizio.cimadamore at oracle.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>> On 22/10/2024 17:32, Alan Snyder wrote:
>>> Some language extensions may involve removing restrictions performed by older compilers. Such extensions probably cannot be implemented using a preprocessor. However, if no JVM support is required, then these extensions are also candidates for a direct implementation by javac. Flexible constructor bodies might fit in this category. Even a restricted version of this feature would be useful.
>> I find the general idea of having magic switches to allow new features to target older JDKs rather unworkable in practice. Most features we do (sealed classes, records, pattern matching) do have rather deep ramifications, sometimes in terms of the Java SE API (e.g. patterns switches are translated with an indy targeting a bootstrap method that is not available in older JDKs), sometimes in terms of the JVM itself (e.g. the JVM knows about sealed classes).
>>
>> So, if you start cherry picking language features, you quickly end up with a Frankenstein Java, which has some of the latest features, but not others. When we design a feature, we do not just design _that_ feature. A big part of designing a new feature (the biggest, often) is making sure that the feature work in harmony with other features that are part of that version of the language. An example of this is the strong synergy between record types, sealed interfaces and pattern matching which, together, give us algebraic data types (or, how we came to call it the "data-oriented programming" model [1]).
>>
>> To put it bluntly, what you are asking for amounts at throwing all this careful design work down the drain, and work with _some_ unspecified version of the language where things *might* work (but also might break in surprising ways). Logistically, this is also a big nightmare, as the JDK will have different implementations for the same feature - which makes code harder to maintain and test, and much more difficult to evolve. This is certain to translate in *less* new features being added to Java, as a lot of our budget will be spent in fixing arcane issues when a feature in Java N doesn't work as expected when running on Java N - M.
>>
>> But, since you specifically refer to "Flexible constructor bodies", as one of those seemingly low-hanging fruits that javac should "just" translate away and make available for older runtimes, please take a look at the size and complexity of some of the patches involved to support that feature [2, 3, 4]. Can we "just" enable flexible constructor bodies for older targets? In theory, yes. In practice, the chances that such changes can be enabled for any older target and not disrupt anything else are rather slim -- in fact, the work in (4) was to fix an obscure regression with serializable lambdas that was only possible to spot due to extensive testing.
>>
>> In my experience, there's no such thing as a "simple" language feature -- even a feature might be *conceptually* simple, the devil is always in the details, and it is those details that, in the end, make your suggestion unworkable in most cases I can think of.
>>
>> [1] - https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.infoq.com/articles/data-oriented-programming-java/__;!!ACWV5N9M2RV99hQ!IxQbll_o6FDxAoxj7eG3LtIdih93WMdfB8o3Jm_9idBJqOGqF6kTF2KAOggyTTeMg6pLBEmmUc7ioOGeLrXVUN5UCHON$
>> [2] - https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://github.com/openjdk/jdk/pull/13656__;!!ACWV5N9M2RV99hQ!IxQbll_o6FDxAoxj7eG3LtIdih93WMdfB8o3Jm_9idBJqOGqF6kTF2KAOggyTTeMg6pLBEmmUc7ioOGeLrXVUJLRkAxp$
>> [3] - https://git.openjdk.org/jdk/pull/19836
>> [4] - https://git.openjdk.org/jdk/pull/20349
>>