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<p>Hmmm, 🤔... I have not been paying much attention to the Scala
community lately Robert as my current job does not use much Scala,
so my Scala use is just recreational programming at the moment. I
did find his presentation rather manipulative, which is
disturbing, and possibly why he is being cancelled.<br>
</p>
<p>Damien, I agree with you. <br>
</p>
<ol>
<li>While he eventually acknowledged Structured Concurrency, he
introduced late to make Zio look better, and when he did
introduce SC, he distorted things.</li>
<li>His dismissive attitude towards exceptions was also
disturbing, possibly because Zio and functional non-blocking
systems cannot deal properly with exceptions. Loom on the other
hand deals really well with exceptions, and there is a huge
investment in libraries that throw exceptions.</li>
<li>Another thing he did not point out was that Scala can easily
use Virtual Threads and Java Structured Concurrency, because I
have done so from Scala. In some cases, I prefer Scala because I
like Scala Collections better then Java Streams, but that's me.</li>
<li>I think there are some aspects of Zio I might like to see in
the general Java language and libraries, but I am willing to
wait. Java has done a great job of learning from the lessons of
Scala, and applying those to the evolution of Java.</li>
<li>Finally, while he did point out the astonishing advantage of
Loom making changes to the JVM itself, he played it down, almost
as if he was holding a grudge because this is something Zio,
Scala, Kotlin cannot do.</li>
</ol>
<p>My next goal is to play with the Helidon Nima more, to use Loom
in real projects.</p>
<p>Cheers, Eric<br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 2023-03-12 6:15 a.m., Robert Engels
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:0828D29A-1264-42B9-B38D-A3AA0977D7E2@ix.netcom.com">
<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">Sorry, I should have given more context. It appears the Scala community is suffering from some political??? issues - to the point that the speaker in the cited video has been “cancelled” and disinvited from the upcoming “scalaconf”. Doesn’t bode well for its wide adoption - which was already in decline.
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">On Mar 11, 2023, at 11:02 PM, Damien Cooke <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:damien@smartphonedev.com"><damien@smartphonedev.com></a> wrote:
Eric,
Thanks for sharing this. I really enjoyed it. He had a great
conversational style and he had some great points. However, his
information on Loom seemed incomplete or outdated at times. There were
quite a few but for me, One glaring inaccuracy was his comments about
structured concurrency. In loom it is every bit as simple and concise
as ZIO consider this:
try (final var executor = Executors.newVirtualThreadPerTaskExecutor())
{
executor.submit(() -> System.out.println("virtual thread 0"));
executor.submit(() -> System.out.println("virtual thread 1"));
}
could anything be more concise than this? We know all threads have
finished once the scope exits.
I also think it was a pointless exercise anyway as they are not
competing products, if ZIO was a library you could use in Java there
might have been a point but ZIO is a library for Scala. Great, I am
not going to learn a new language just so I can use ZIO. I would learn
Scala because it was the right tool for a particular job and certainly
use ZIO if concurrency was part of that project, however, Java's
concurrency tools were quite robust even before Loom, Loom just made
them much much better. I would not use Scala over Java just so I can
use ZIO.
Regards
Damien
</pre>
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">On Fri, 2023-03-10 at 14:57 -0800, Eric Kolotyluk wrote:
The Great Concurrency Smackdown: ZIO versus JDK by John A. De Goes
I would recommend this presentation as interesting, worth watching.
However, I found a lot of problems with the arguments, and while John
De Goes knows a few things about Loom, his knowledge is incomplete
and out of date. On the other had, he does make a few interesting
claims about Zio that might be nice features in Loom some day. In
particular, the for-yield structure in Scala and Zio is a very
powerful structure, although can be quite cryptic to fathom,
especially by the most clever in the Scala community.
I will withhold my other insights and questions until people respond
to this, showing interest in further discussion.
Cheers, Eric
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre class="moz-quote-pre" wrap="">
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</blockquote>
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