<html class="apple-mail-supports-explicit-dark-mode"><head><meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body dir="auto"><div dir="ltr"></div><div dir="ltr">Respectfully, can you give it a rest. The primary decision of Loom - that governed all others - was to make VirtualThread a Thread. Why? To ensure not just backwards compatibility but to keep a proven and robust programming model. C had errors as values from the start - what came later recognized the limitations and problems of that model and thus exceptions. Quit trying to force the rest of us back to the dark ages because you can’t figure it out. </div><div dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="ltr">Respectfully. </div><div dir="ltr"><br><blockquote type="cite">On Dec 19, 2025, at 12:23 PM, Eric Kolotyluk <eric@kolotyluk.net> wrote:<br><br></blockquote></div><blockquote type="cite"><div dir="ltr">
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<p>Thanks — this is a thoughtful and technically grounded response,
and I appreciate the clarity around the trade-offs STS is
managing. I think we largely agree on the local reasoning behind
each exception choice, and your description of STS as a compromise
object serving orthogonal semantic needs resonates.<br>
<br>
I want to clarify one aspect of my intent. I’m not so much
offering solutions here as asking questions — deliberately. In my
experience, strong scientific and engineering work starts by
identifying where the remaining uncertainty or friction actually
is, before jumping to remedies. Loom itself is a good example of
that mindset.<br>
<br>
One dimension that Loom brings into sharper focus is the role of
the JVM in shaping what becomes viable or idiomatic in Java.
Making virtual threads work required substantial runtime and
tooling changes — including around stack capture, continuations,
debugging, and exception mechanics — so that existing exception
semantics continue to function naturally under a very different
execution model. That’s an impressive achievement, but it also
highlights an asymmetry.<br>
<br>
Exceptions are a VM-native failure mechanism, so when the
execution model changes, the JVM absorbs the complexity needed to
preserve their ergonomics. Value-based failure modeling (e.g.,
Result-style returns) is largely a library-level pattern: it
doesn’t require JVM enhancements to exist, but it also doesn’t
receive first-class runtime or tooling support in the same way.
I’m not claiming Result<T,E> is free or universally better —
it has real costs in boilerplate and ergonomics, especially in
Java today — only that the ecosystem naturally gravitates toward
whatever the VM blesses as first-class.<br>
<br>
This context is what motivates my broader question. Structured
concurrency makes lifetimes and scopes explicit, but failure and
cancellation semantics are still largely ambient and
stack-oriented. STS shows how much care is required to make that
work well, yet it also makes visible that there are still hard
problems here, especially once concurrency and parallelism are
taken seriously:<br>
• how cancellation should be modeled and propagated,<br>
• how multiple concurrent failures should be aggregated or
prioritized,<br>
• how to represent partial success and expected failure
without overloading “exceptional” paths,<br>
• how failure semantics align with explicit lifetime
scopes,<br>
• and how observability and debugging scale across async
and parallel boundaries.<br>
<br>
I’m not arguing that any particular exception in STS is wrong, nor
advocating a specific replacement model. I’m asking whether Loom’s
success suggests that error handling — like concurrency itself —
may still have unresolved design questions at the systems level,
even if the current answers are pragmatic and defensible.<br>
<br>
If the conclusion is that exceptions remain sufficient even under
these constraints, that’s a reasonable position. My interest is in
making that reasoning explicit, in light of the new execution
model Loom has introduced.<br>
<br>
Thanks again for engaging seriously with the question.<br>
<br>
Cheers,<br>
Eric</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 2025-12-19 6:31 AM, David Alayachew
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite" cite="mid:CAA9v-_O=ijjhr0vEtfKvRHqBqS6x+=9jHvzcenEAPB8nRzaH2A@mail.gmail.com">
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<div dir="auto">Hello <span class="gmail_chip gmail_plusreply" dir="auto"><a href="mailto:eric@kolotyluk.net" style="color:#15c;text-decoration:underline" moz-do-not-send="true">@Eric Kolotyluk</a></span>,
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">Let me start off by giving context -- the way
STS uses exceptions is a little more complicated than just
"throw, even on very much expected errors".</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">One of the downsides of STS is that it is the
hotelier to several different guests with very different
(almost orthogonal) semantic needs -- thus forcing the final
design to sardine them together in some uncomfortable ways.</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">You mentioned one of these pain points in the
previous thread -- about the joiner returning null when
successful, and exception otherwise.</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">Stuff like that is usually an indicator that an
API is trying to do 2 or more things at once, and can't easily
accomodate both in the cleanest way. The literal reason
java.lang.Void was created back when was to bandaid this exact
problem.</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">So, understanding that STS is trying to cover
multiple different API needs in one hood, hopefully that makes
more sense why the answer is null vs exception for that
particular joiner. It's not clean, but it serves the purpose
well enough, imo.</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">With that context out of the way, let me respond
to your points.</div>
<div dir="auto">
<ul>
<li>How do unchecked exceptions interact with structured
concurrency’s goal of making lifetimes and failure scopes
explicit?</li>
</ul>
</div>
<div dir="auto">I'm not sure I follow. Are you asking how
unchecked exceptions thrown by MY CLIENT CODE interact with
STS? If so, I'd say, the same as everywhere else.</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">My understanding is that Unchecked is for
programming bugs, and therefore, should not be dealt with. The
only difference between other contexts and STS is that, for
some of the joiners (awaitAll), STS gives you the choice to do
that or not. It's not necessarily the default to propagate,
which some developers have raised disagreement with in the
past.</div>
<div dir="auto">
<ul>
<li>Do exceptions remain the best abstraction for expected
failure in highly concurrent, compositional code?</li>
</ul>
<div dir="auto">Well, again, it depends what you mean here.
This question and the one before it are rather open-ended.</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">Currently, the join method throws several
different exceptions.</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">WrongThreadException -- I think using an
(unchecked) exception is the right choice here because this
situation can only occur via programming error.</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">IllegalStateException -- Same logic as above.</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">FailedException -- Some feel this should be
replaced by a return type in the vein of Result<T> or
something related. I don't necessarily agree, as I still do
want a stack trace with line numbers. And if that
Result<T> is actually Result<T,Ex> where Ex is
an exception, well I think Exceptions are the better vehicle
for that type of response instead of Result.</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">TimeoutException -- This is a great example of
what I mean when I say sardine. Normally, this would
obviously be a checked exception (an expected failure that
no amount of prep time can realistically prevent), but since
I can turn off timeouts, forcing everyone to pay for this
doesn't make sense. Aka, sardines. But really, the original
sin is that code that doesn't do timeouts shouldn't be able
to throw this. Sadly, the only real way to do this in Java
25 is by significantly bloating the Java api. You'd have to
break apart and duplicate the API in ways that increase the
surface area while adding very little semantic meaning.
That's a double whammy in the worst way. That'd be like
Stream vs IntStream vs DoubleStream all over again. I can
definitely understand ehy they do not want that for STS.
Maybe some exploration is being done towards remedying this,
idk.</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">InterruptedException -- Well, this one is
fine. However you feel about Interrupts and how Java
implements them, STS is advertised to handle and emit
interrupts "properly", therefore the behaviour here is
unavoidable, according to the spec. You'd have to trandform
STS into something wildly different in order to change how
or if we deal in InterruptedExceptions.</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">So, from what I can see here, each of the
exceptions seem reasonable. Albeit, some are the result of
conflicting concerns. But I don't see how any other solution
would address these better.</div>
<ul>
<li>Are there patterns (or emerging idioms) that Loom
encourages which mitigate long-standing concerns with
exceptions — or does Loom expose new ones?</li>
<li>More broadly, should Java be thinking in terms of
additional failure-handling tools rather than a single
dominant model?</li>
</ul>
<div dir="auto">I think Java already has, but even in light of
that exploration, chose to use exceptions here.</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">But frankly, both of these points are broad. I
think you need to be more specific here.</div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">I will say, your original post in the previous
thread was asking a very different question than this
thread. Did you mean to, or are you building up to that?</div>
</div>
<br>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote gmail_quote_container" dir="auto">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Fri, Dec 19, 2025,
8:25 AM David Alayachew <<a href="mailto:davidalayachew@gmail.com" moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">davidalayachew@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="auto">And just for context for all, here is the
previous thread where this discussion originated.
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto"><a href="https://mail.openjdk.org/pipermail/loom-dev/2025-December/008117.html" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">https://mail.openjdk.org/pipermail/loom-dev/2025-December/008117.html</a></div>
<div dir="auto"><br>
</div>
<div dir="auto">You can start reading from there. A few
more replies later, and then this new thread was
created, so as not to distract from the other topic.</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Fri, Dec 19, 2025,
1:35 AM Eric Kolotyluk <<a href="mailto:eric@kolotyluk.net" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">eric@kolotyluk.net</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div> Hi all,<br>
<br>
I’m starting a new thread to continue a discussion
that emerged elsewhere, per mailing list etiquette,
and to give the topic a clean and traceable home.<br>
<br>
My interest here isn’t reactive to any one exchange.
I’ve been experimenting with Loom since its early
iterations, and over time it has sharpened a concern I
already had: whether Java’s traditional exception
model remains the right default abstraction in a world
of structured concurrency, virtual threads, and
large-scale composition.<br>
<br>
To be clear, this is not a claim that “exceptions are
broken” or that Java should abandon them. Java’s
exception system has supported billions of lines of
successful code, and I’ve used it productively for
decades. Rather, Loom makes certain trade-offs more
visible — particularly around control flow,
cancellation, failure propagation, and reasoning about
lifetimes — that were easier to ignore in a purely
thread-per-task world.<br>
<br>
The core questions I’m interested in exploring are
along these lines:<br>
<ul>
<li>How do unchecked exceptions interact with
structured concurrency’s goal of making lifetimes
and failure scopes explicit?</li>
<li>Do exceptions remain the best abstraction for
expected failure in highly concurrent,
compositional code?</li>
<li>Are there patterns (or emerging idioms) that
Loom encourages which mitigate long-standing
concerns with exceptions — or does Loom expose new
ones?</li>
<li>More broadly, should Java be thinking in terms
of additional failure-handling tools rather than a
single dominant model?</li>
</ul>
I’m not advocating a specific alternative here — just
inviting a technical discussion about whether Loom
changes how we should think about error handling, and
if so, how.<br>
<br>
That said, exposure to other ecosystems (e.g., Scala,
Kotlin, and more recently Rust) has broadened how I
think about failure modeling. One thing I’ve
consistently appreciated about Java is that it tends
to integrate external ideas deliberately, rather than
reflexively rejecting them or adopting them wholesale.
Loom itself is a good example of that approach.<br>
<br>
I’m interested in whether error handling deserves a
similar re-examination in light of Loom’s goals.<br>
<br>
Looking forward to the discussion.<br>
<br>
Cheers,<br>
Eric </div>
</blockquote>
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</blockquote>
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