JavaFX Sightings (forked from Re: Can JavaFX do CAD?)

Mon Aug 5 21:19:02 PDT 2013

Here is another one on the Oracle page: http://www.oracle.com/technetwork/java/javafx/codelse-1984189.html

Richard

On Aug 4, 2013, at 6:15 AM, Sven Reimers <sven.reimers at gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi,
> 
> from my perspective a showcase list saying technology X is used by the top ten largest engineering companies is always very nice to convince people they are not basing a long term project/product on an used, not widespread technology.
> 
> So for me building a showcase page is a key thing for helping in the decision making process.
> 
> -Sven
> 
> 
> On Sun, Aug 4, 2013 at 10:12 AM, Johan Vos <johan at lodgon.com> wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> I agree such an overview page would definitely help, but the go/no-go
> decisions I often see have less to do with convincing customers about
> JavaFX being the right technology. Customers have a number of requirements,
> and if I can tell them JavaFX is capable of doing that, they trust me (and
> they will blame me when I'm wrong).
> 
> The key bummer I've seen so far is (yet again) wide deployment. "It should
> run on tablets" and "Our Customers should be able to use [install] this
> very easily".
> I am very much aware of the progress being made in both areas, so I'm not
> complaining at all -- but there is a lot of work to be done.
> Just want to set expectations right: a cool overview of what is already
> achieved with JavaFX is not going to convince all potential customers -- in
> my experience the deployment is still the major reasons why a number of
> companies are not in favor of JavaFX yet.
> 
> - Johan
> 
> 
> 
> 2013/8/4 Anton Epple <toni.epple at eppleton.de>
> 
> > A combination of a page describing an individual application, like the one
> > you linked here, would be one part and -more important- a page that lists
> > *all* the applications with a screenshot and a short description. The
> > latter would be important, because it's a showcase for decision makers who
> > are yet undecided if JavaFX is the right technology.
> >
> > Before that page existed for NB Platform, I had the same discussions I now
> > have for potential JavaFX projects. Developers are in doubt if the
> > technology is mature/performant/secure/whatever enough for their
> > large/unique/graphically demanding/etc. project. After they see the page,
> > they're convinced that it can be done.
> >
> > It's especially useful if you need to convince a team. Typically there's
> > at least one person in favor of a different technology (for JavaFX it's
> > typically GWT) and such a page is a great FUD-killer.
> >
> > Am 01.08.2013 um 22:40 schrieb Richard Bair <Richard.Bair at oracle.com>:
> >
> > > Something I guess would go on such a page?
> > >
> > > http://fxexperience.com/2013/08/javafx-hd-menus-on-raspberrypi/
> > >
> > > On Aug 1, 2013, at 3:21 AM, Anton Epple <toni.epple at eppleton.de> wrote:
> > >
> > >> Great idea, there's a site that does the same for NetBeans Platform
> > Apps:
> > >>
> > >> https://platform.netbeans.org/screenshots.html
> > >>
> > >> I can tell from my own experience that it helps a lot in discussions
> > with customers to show them that NASA, NATO, Boeing, UNO, US Army, and many
> > others are building on top of NB Platform.
> > >>
> > >> From the maintainer of this site, I know there's a lot of work involved
> > though, and you have to be very active in identifying users, and reaching
> > out to them. It's definitely not sufficient to wait for users to submit
> > their applications. Sometimes it can take a couple of years from first
> > contact to a screenshot. That said it's absolutely worth it, and I would
> > volunteer to help in any way I can.
> > >>
> > >> Toni
> > >>
> > >> --
> > >> Anton Epple
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Am 28.07.2013 um 02:38 schrieb Jonathan Giles <
> > jonathan.giles at oracle.com>:
> > >>
> > >>> This is something that Jasper actually brought up just this morning
> > with Richard and I (wrt fxexperience hosting it). I suspect we may get
> > something underway in the coming weeks. Of course, it depends on the
> > community getting in touch with us and letting us talk about them - so much
> > of the JavaFX world is behind corporate firewalls, where talking about your
> > work is generally frowned upon. In any case, for those of you that can talk
> > about your work, please email one of us off-list.
> > >>> -- Jonathan
> > >>> Sent from a touch device. Please excuse my brevity.
> > >>>
> > >>> "John C. Turnbull" <ozemale at ozemail.com.au> wrote:
> > >>>> +1
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Such a site could be very useful.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> -----Original Message-----
> > >>>> From: openjfx-dev-bounces at openjdk.java.net
> > >>>> [mailto:openjfx-dev-bounces at openjdk.java.net] On Behalf Of Daniel
> > >>>> Zwolenski
> > >>>> Sent: Sunday, 28 July 2013 09:56
> > >>>> To: Pedro Duque Vieira
> > >>>> Cc: OpenJFX Mailing List
> > >>>> Subject: JavaFX Sightings (forked from Re: Can JavaFX do CAD?)
> > >>>>
> > >>>> The idea of a JFX Sightings page (in the tradition of the Swing
> > >>>> Sightings
> > >>>> page) has been raised before and I think is a good one.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> It deserves it's own page though, that technet section isn't up to it
> > >>>> in my
> > >>>> opinion.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Personally I think this would be great under the fxexperience site as
> > >>>> it
> > >>>> partners nicely with the links of the week?
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>> On 28/07/2013, at 4:17 AM, Pedro Duque Vieira
> > >>>> <pedro.duquevieira at gmail.com>
> > >>>> wrote:
> > >>>>
> > >>>>> I have an Swing/JavaFX app, the site is: http://modellus.co
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> How can I get it to be on that real world usecases section? Or does
> > >>>> it
> > >>>>> not have the necessary requirements to be in it?
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> Thanks, best regards,
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> @John: On the JavaFx community site they have a section with
> > >>>>> references to
> > >>>>>> real world usecases.
> > >>>>>> http://www.oracle.com/technetwork/java/javafx/community/index.html
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> On Sat, Jul 27, 2013 at 1:40 AM, John C. Turnbull
> > >>>>>> <ozemale at ozemail.com.au
> > >>>>>>> wrote:
> > >>>>>>> Like Daniel said, none of what we say is in any way a criticism of
> > >>>>>>> the JavaFX development team who, in my view and that of the entire
> > >>>>>>> community, are doing an awesome job.
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> For mine, all the shortcomings of JavaFX (perceived or actual) can
> > >>>>>>> be
> > >>>>>> blown
> > >>>>>>> away if I could just demonstrate what JavaFX is really capable of.
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> We have Ensemble from Oracle and also Ensemble from JFXtras (whose
> > >>>>>>> demo incidentally doesn't run since Java 7 Update 21).  With Oracle
> > >>>>
> > >>>>>>> Ensemble
> > >>>>>> we
> > >>>>>>> can see that JavaFX has quite a nice set of basic controls and that
> > >>>>
> > >>>>>>> it at least supports very simple animations.  With JFXtras Ensemble
> > >>>>
> > >>>>>>> we can see that very nice controls are possible but unfortunately
> > >>>>>>> many of these are
> > >>>>>> of
> > >>>>>>> a rather "whimsical" nature and not the kind of control you would
> > >>>>>>> use in everyday business apps.
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> What else is there?
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> Of course we have rock stars like Gerrit Grunwald who frequently
> > >>>>>>> post awesome controls and code snippets but we really need
> > >>>> something
> > >>>>>>> that
> > >>>>>> brings
> > >>>>>>> it altogether in a kick-arse showcase.  Preferably a whole suite of
> > >>>>>> killer
> > >>>>>>> apps that highlights everything JavaFX is capable of.
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> Yes, that would require a lot of effort but IMHO it is absolutely
> > >>>>>>> worth
> > >>>>>> it.
> > >>>>>>> Without it, people like me really struggle to sell JavaFX or even
> > >>>>>>> get a handle on its true potential.  I can promise people that more
> > >>>>
> > >>>>>>> advanced things are "possible" but given that they write the
> > >>>>>>> cheques, they need to see it for themselves.
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> And how about a website of JavaFX reference sites?  There must be
> > >>>>>>> big companies out there using it right?
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> In the end it doesn't matter if I personally see enormous potential
> > >>>>
> > >>>>>>> for JavaFX if I cannot convince others to see what I see.
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> -jct
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> From: Daniel Zwolenski [mailto:zonski at gmail.com]
> > >>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, 27 July 2013 09:12
> > >>>>>>> To: John C. Turnbull
> > >>>>>>> Cc: Richard Bair; openjfx-dev at openjdk.java.net
> > >>>>>>> Subject: Re: Can JavaFX do CAD?
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> +1
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> I've failed to convince multiple clients that they should use JFX
> > >>>>>>> because of
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> a) lack of examples of what it can really do, and how to make it do
> > >>>>
> > >>>>>>> that (e.g. in enterprise space we have
> > >>>>>>> http://static.springsource.org/docs/petclinic.html)
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> b) lack of any big or notable players out there actually using it,
> > >>>>>>> or at least publicly saying they are using it
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> c) the deployment hassles vs the ease of html app deployment and
> > >>>> the
> > >>>>>>> true cross-platform-ness of html
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> After actually getting one client to trust me on it and use it on a
> > >>>>
> > >>>>>>> real, commercial app (startup), I hit problems with performance
> > >>>>>>> (broad interpretation of the term, not 'framerate'), crippling
> > >>>>>>> deployment and
> > >>>>>> auto
> > >>>>>>> updating issues, missing basic features (e.g. maximise button,
> > >>>>>>> coming in
> > >>>>>>> 2014 I believe?), unpredictability of CSS styling, and a lack of
> > >>>>>>> best practices for things like how to do CAD-like diagrams (not so
> > >>>>>>> much render performance but zooming, panning, mouse input,
> > >>>> layering,
> > >>>> dragging, etc).
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> Like John, I've been guilty of letting my frustration show in these
> > >>>>>> forums.
> > >>>>>>> Like John, it's because I want so badly for JavaFX to be the
> > >>>>>>> platform I develop on, it has the potential to be awesome, but
> > >>>>>>> things (that seem obvious and small to me) completely stop it from
> > >>>>>>> being usable in a real world situation for me.
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> It's not that we think the JFX team aren't slogging their guts out,
> > >>>>>> clearly
> > >>>>>>> you are. It's just that in some key areas, there are small-ish
> > >>>>>>> blocks
> > >>>>>> that
> > >>>>>>> stop the whole rocket from launching. To then see a whole lot of
> > >>>>>>> effort
> > >>>>>> be
> > >>>>>>> poured into things like binary CSS/FXML compilation, Pi platform
> > >>>>>>> support (that's more important than iOS/Android, really?), web
> > >>>>>>> deployment
> > >>>>>> patches,
> > >>>>>>> or even 3D (as cool as that is), just knocks me about. Obviously
> > >>>>>>> your priorities are coming from somewhere different to ours, but
> > >>>> the
> > >>>>>>> way you prioritise is unfathomable to me and that definitely adds
> > >>>> to
> > >>>>>>> the frustration.
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> At this stage, I am not suggesting my clients use JFX (I actively
> > >>>>>>> discourage them from it, in their interest). Mobile is the area
> > >>>> that
> > >>>>>>> has the
> > >>>>>> potential
> > >>>>>>> to bring JFX back into usable for me as it can compete easier with
> > >>>>>>> the current technologies (which are all crap). Maybe if that ends
> > >>>> up
> > >>>>>>> working
> > >>>>>> (a
> > >>>>>>> long, long road to go on that and very much an 'if') then it will
> > >>>>>>> seep
> > >>>>>> back
> > >>>>>>> into the desktop for me, but at a minimum the desktop deployment
> > >>>>>>> options will need to be improved before that's even a possibility.
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> I've come to accept that I am not in the primary target audience
> > >>>> for
> > >>>>>>> JavaFX, maybe a secondary target. I don't understand who the
> > >>>> primary
> > >>>>>>> target is though, and knowing/accepting doesn't make it any less
> > >>>>>>> frustrating. I
> > >>>>>> keep
> > >>>>>>> involved in the hope that I might get a usable platform somewhere
> > >>>>>>> along
> > >>>>>> the
> > >>>>>>> way but it's more of a hope than a belief.
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> So nothing really new above, but just adding my voice to John's.
> > >>>>>>> JavaFX
> > >>>>>> is
> > >>>>>>> definitely not production ready for me, my clients and the types of
> > >>>>
> > >>>>>>> apps
> > >>>>>> I
> > >>>>>>> build (e.g. consumer facing online systems, enterprise/backoffice
> > >>>>>> systems,
> > >>>>>>> form/data systems, diagramming systems). One day I hope it will be,
> > >>>>
> > >>>>>>> but it's moving extremely slowly or not at all in the areas that
> > >>>>>>> would make it so for me. Meanwhile the competitors (primarily
> > >>>>>>> JavaScript based solutions) are improving rapidly in the areas
> > >>>> where
> > >>>>>>> they have traditionally been weak.
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> On Sat, Jul 27, 2013 at 8:30 AM, John C. Turnbull <
> > >>>>>> ozemale at ozemail.com.au
> > >>>>>>> <mailto:ozemale at ozemail.com.au> > wrote:
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> Hi Richard,
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> I have to stop posting late at night, that one came across as
> > >>>> really
> > >>>>>> ANGRY!
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> It's not anger, it's passion... and frustration.
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> I am frustrated because I spend much of my day trying to convince
> > >>>> my
> > >>>>>>> employer that we should be using JavaFX.  They ask me questions
> > >>>> like:
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> "What happens if Oracle abandons JavaFX just like Sun did with JMF,
> > >>>>>> Java3D,
> > >>>>>>> JOGL etc. ?"
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> I say:
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> "This is Oracle, not Sun."
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> They say:
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> "Can you show me what JavaFX can do? There must be examples out
> > >>>>>>> there right?"
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> And I say:
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> "Sure, here's Ensemble."
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> They say:
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> "OK, so it has a nice set of basic controls and can do simple
> > >>>>>>> animations but what about more complex things like Flash?"
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> ...hence the dancing cat reference.
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> It's not that my employer *needs* dancing cats, it's just that they
> > >>>>
> > >>>>>>> need
> > >>>>>> to
> > >>>>>>> see that there is more to JavaFX than red circle transitions.  I
> > >>>>>>> can't
> > >>>>>> even
> > >>>>>>> prove to them that JavaFX is capable of dancing cats.  They don't
> > >>>>>>> have
> > >>>>>> the
> > >>>>>>> resources to fund me to develop something more sophisticated but
> > >>>>>>> they
> > >>>>>> tell
> > >>>>>>> me that if JavaFX truly was a "mature" technology (like I tell
> > >>>> them)
> > >>>>>>> then where are all the examples?
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> I am finding it difficult to convince them that JavaFX is
> > >>>> production
> > >>>>>> ready
> > >>>>>>> and is not still in "experimental" mode because I am unable to
> > >>>>>> demonstrate
> > >>>>>>> its true capabilities or refer them to many examples of people (and
> > >>>>
> > >>>>>>> I
> > >>>>>> mean
> > >>>>>>> big companies) actually using it.
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> The main concerns of my employer and I think many companies in a
> > >>>>>>> similar situation is that JavaFX won't survive long term and that
> > >>>> it
> > >>>>>>> is only
> > >>>>>> really
> > >>>>>>> suitable for form based applications.  Then of course there is the
> > >>>>>>> whole
> > >>>>>>> "HTML5 runs on all platforms" argument but that's another story...
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> So this is why I think it's imperative that Oracle invests in
> > >>>>>>> developing
> > >>>>>> a
> > >>>>>>> true showcase application for JavaFX.  Something that non-technical
> > >>>>>> people
> > >>>>>>> (like managers who make decisions about where the money goes) can
> > >>>>>>> look at it and go "wow!".
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> I am just not getting my managers to go "wow" at what I can show
> > >>>>>>> them
> > >>>>>> with
> > >>>>>>> JavaFX at the moment.
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> Every comment or apparent criticism I post about JavaFX is from the
> > >>>>
> > >>>>>>> perspective that I am trying to deal with real-world problems and
> > >>>>>>> people who require proof (such as demos, reference sites etc.) and
> > >>>>>>> not because I myself think JavaFX is not up to scratch.
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> It's quite the opposite actually.
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> I am a very, very strong believer and supporter of JavaFX and have
> > >>>>>>> many reasons both personal and professional as to why I want it to
> > >>>>>>> be a
> > >>>>>> massive
> > >>>>>>> success.  As I have said before, there are plenty of people who
> > >>>>>>> praise JavaFX and tend to avoid the very real issues that are
> > >>>>>>> restricting its adoption.  I just think we have to face these
> > >>>> issues
> > >>>>>>> head on if we are to compete in what is a very cut-throat industry.
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> -jct
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
> > >>>>>>> From: Richard Bair [mailto:richard.bair at oracle.com
> > >>>>>>> <mailto:richard.bair at oracle.com> ]
> > >>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, 27 July 2013 01:40
> > >>>>>>> To: John C. Turnbull
> > >>>>>>> Cc: 'Daniel Zwolenski'; openjfx-dev at openjdk.java.net
> > >>>>>>> <mailto:openjfx-dev at openjdk.java.net>
> > >>>>>>> Subject: Re: Can JavaFX do CAD?
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> For Flash, there are literally millions of examples of
> > >>>>>>>> fancy/complex/impressive graphics and animations out there that
> > >>>> can
> > >>>>>>>> be really impressive at times.  I have not seen ONE such example
> > >>>> in
> > >>>>>> JavaFX!
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> Point to one?
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> Have you seen any of the JavaOne examples? The movie wall or movies
> > >>>>
> > >>>>>>> on a stack of 3D cubes was pretty good. But I guess you're not
> > >>>>>>> interested in
> > >>>>>> the
> > >>>>>>> 3D aspect? What is it you are looking for exactly? Different people
> > >>>>
> > >>>>>>> (on this
> > >>>>>>> list) have had different perceptions on both (a) what's important
> > >>>>>>> and (b) what kind of graphics they're interested in. Most people
> > >>>>>>> would deride the dancing cat as being totally irrelevant to the
> > >>>>>>> types of applications they're trying to build (the basis for much
> > >>>> of
> > >>>>>>> flash animations is shape
> > >>>>>> morphing,
> > >>>>>>> you can find some code here
> > >>>> https://gist.github.com/gontard/5029764).
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> On the other hand, JavaFX is not a replacement for OpenGL. Drawing
> > >>>>>>> 25 million lines is just not something we can do right now,
> > >>>>>>> especially in a resource constrained environment. I've already
> > >>>>>>> commented on the memory overhead (which would continue to be an
> > >>>>>>> issue even if the drawing part of the problem were solved).
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> I've pushed to graphics repo the StretchyGrid, which is about 300k
> > >>>>>>> line nodes (the actual amount is variable, see the javadoc
> > >>>>>>> comments). At 300k nodes the scene graph overhead is negligible on
> > >>>>>>> the FX side, dirty opts
> > >>>>>> is
> > >>>>>>> taking a long time to run, and painting is really slow.
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> PULSE: 347 [122ms:222ms]
> > >>>>>>> T12 (8 +0ms): CSS Pass
> > >>>>>>> T12 (8 +0ms): Layout Pass
> > >>>>>>> T12 (47 +53ms): Waiting for previous rendering
> > >>>>>>> T12 (100 +1ms): Copy state to render graph
> > >>>>>>> T10 (101 +16ms): Dirty Opts Computed
> > >>>>>>> T10 (117 +105ms): Painted
> > >>>>>>> Counters:
> > >>>>>>>     Nodes rendered: 306565
> > >>>>>>>     Nodes visited during render: 306565
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> If I were doing this by hand in open GL, I think the drawing would
> > >>>>>>> be essentially free, if I used LINES with GL anti-aliasing, I could
> > >>>>
> > >>>>>>> send 'em all down to the card in a single shot (and if I had a
> > >>>>>>> modern GL I could
> > >>>>>> do
> > >>>>>>> LINES + FXAA or one of the other per-pixel AA algorithms available
> > >>>>>>> and it would turn out pretty nice). Because our shapes don't
> > >>>>>>> implement the
> > >>>>>> non-AA
> > >>>>>>> path, and our AA involves software rasterization and uploading of
> > >>>>>> pixels, I
> > >>>>>>> expect that to be the main source of the 105ms time being spent
> > >>>> here.
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> Also I noticed (by turning on prism.showdirty=true) that the entire
> > >>>>
> > >>>>>>> grid
> > >>>>>> is
> > >>>>>>> being painted every time, even though visually it looks like only a
> > >>>>
> > >>>>>>> small subset actually needs to be changed. But that's really a
> > >>>> minor
> > >>>>>>> thing, as
> > >>>>>> I
> > >>>>>>> said, drawing this many lines should basically be free if I
> > >>>>>>> configure "smooth" to false in the app. Except that right now it is
> > >>>>
> > >>>>>>> totally not implemented (in NGShape):
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> public void setAntialiased(boolean aa) {
> > >>>>>>>     // We don't support aliased shapes at this time
> > >>>>>>> }
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> The point of stretchy grid is not to say "wow look at this amazing
> > >>>> demo".
> > >>>>>>> The point is to say "what happens if I put in 300K nodes. Where
> > >>>> does
> > >>>>>>> the system start to fall over?".
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> Richard=
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> --
> > >>>>> Pedro Duque Vieira
> > >>
> > >
> >
> >
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Sven Reimers
> 
> * Senior Expert Software Architect
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