JavaFX Sightings (forked from Re: Can JavaFX do CAD?)
Klaus Eckelt
klaus.eckelt at gmail.com
Wed Aug 7 04:34:11 PDT 2013
Hi,
as i moved our MusicPlayer Project to SourceForge yesterday, I saw you
can't select JavaFX as used GUI technology.
I guess this should be added (i'll try to suggest it somewhere) and would
allow to filter for FX Applications there.
Regards
//Klaus
From: openjfx-dev-bounces at openjdk.java.net [mailto:
> openjfx-dev-bounces at openjdk.java.net] On Behalf Of Sven Reimers
> Sent: Dienstag, 6. August 2013 07:55
> To: Richard Bair
> Cc: openjfx mailing list; Pedro Duque Vieira
> Subject:
> Re: JavaFX Sightings (forked from Re: Can JavaFX do CAD?)
>
> So we should start and assemble them on a community JavaFX showcase page?
>
> Should we try to get Jim Weaver and Gerrit involved?
>
> -Sven
> Am 06.08.2013 06:19 schrieb "Richard Bair" <Richard.Bair at oracle.com>:
>
> > Here is another one on the Oracle page:
> > http://www.oracle.com/technetwork/java/javafx/codelse-1984189.html
> >
> > Richard
> >
> > On Aug 4, 2013, at 6:15 AM, Sven Reimers <sven.reimers at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > Hi,
> >
> > from my perspective a showcase list saying technology X is used by the
> > top ten largest engineering companies is always very nice to convince
> > people they are not basing a long term project/product on an used, not
> > widespread technology.
> >
> > So for me building a showcase page is a key thing for helping in the
> > decision making process.
> >
> > -Sven
> >
> >
> > On Sun, Aug 4, 2013 at 10:12 AM, Johan Vos <johan at lodgon.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Hi,
> >>
> >> I agree such an overview page would definitely help, but the go/no-go
> >> decisions I often see have less to do with convincing customers about
> >> JavaFX being the right technology. Customers have a number of
> >> requirements, and if I can tell them JavaFX is capable of doing that,
> >> they trust me (and they will blame me when I'm wrong).
> >>
> >> The key bummer I've seen so far is (yet again) wide deployment. "It
> >> should run on tablets" and "Our Customers should be able to use
> >> [install] this very easily".
> >> I am very much aware of the progress being made in both areas, so I'm
> >> not complaining at all -- but there is a lot of work to be done.
> >> Just want to set expectations right: a cool overview of what is
> >> already achieved with JavaFX is not going to convince all potential
> >> customers -- in my experience the deployment is still the major
> >> reasons why a number of companies are not in favor of JavaFX yet.
> >>
> >> - Johan
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> 2013/8/4 Anton Epple <toni.epple at eppleton.de>
> >>
> >> > A combination of a page describing an individual application, like
> >> > the
> >> one
> >> > you linked here, would be one part and -more important- a page that
> >> lists
> >> > *all* the applications with a screenshot and a short description.
> >> > The latter would be important, because it's a showcase for decision
> >> > makers
> >> who
> >> > are yet undecided if JavaFX is the right technology.
> >> >
> >> > Before that page existed for NB Platform, I had the same
> >> > discussions I
> >> now
> >> > have for potential JavaFX projects. Developers are in doubt if the
> >> > technology is mature/performant/secure/whatever enough for their
> >> > large/unique/graphically demanding/etc. project. After they see the
> >> page,
> >> > they're convinced that it can be done.
> >> >
> >> > It's especially useful if you need to convince a team. Typically
> >> > there's at least one person in favor of a different technology (for
> >> > JavaFX it's typically GWT) and such a page is a great FUD-killer.
> >> >
> >> > Am 01.08.2013 um 22:40 schrieb Richard Bair <Richard.Bair at oracle.com
> >:
> >> >
> >> > > Something I guess would go on such a page?
> >> > >
> >> > > http://fxexperience.com/2013/08/javafx-hd-menus-on-raspberrypi/
> >> > >
> >> > > On Aug 1, 2013, at 3:21 AM, Anton Epple <toni.epple at eppleton.de>
> >> wrote:
> >> > >
> >> > >> Great idea, there's a site that does the same for NetBeans
> >> > >> Platform
> >> > Apps:
> >> > >>
> >> > >> https://platform.netbeans.org/screenshots.html
> >> > >>
> >> > >> I can tell from my own experience that it helps a lot in
> >> > >> discussions
> >> > with customers to show them that NASA, NATO, Boeing, UNO, US Army,
> >> > and
> >> many
> >> > others are building on top of NB Platform.
> >> > >>
> >> > >> From the maintainer of this site, I know there's a lot of work
> >> involved
> >> > though, and you have to be very active in identifying users, and
> >> reaching
> >> > out to them. It's definitely not sufficient to wait for users to
> >> > submit their applications. Sometimes it can take a couple of years
> >> > from first contact to a screenshot. That said it's absolutely worth
> >> > it, and I would volunteer to help in any way I can.
> >> > >>
> >> > >> Toni
> >> > >>
> >> > >> --
> >> > >> Anton Epple
> >> > >>
> >> > >>
> >> > >>
> >> > >> Am 28.07.2013 um 02:38 schrieb Jonathan Giles <
> >> > jonathan.giles at oracle.com>:
> >> > >>
> >> > >>> This is something that Jasper actually brought up just this
> >> > >>> morning
> >> > with Richard and I (wrt fxexperience hosting it). I suspect we may
> >> > get something underway in the coming weeks. Of course, it depends
> >> > on the community getting in touch with us and letting us talk about
> >> > them - so
> >> much
> >> > of the JavaFX world is behind corporate firewalls, where talking
> >> > about
> >> your
> >> > work is generally frowned upon. In any case, for those of you that
> >> > can
> >> talk
> >> > about your work, please email one of us off-list.
> >> > >>> -- Jonathan
> >> > >>> Sent from a touch device. Please excuse my brevity.
> >> > >>>
> >> > >>> "John C. Turnbull" <ozemale at ozemail.com.au> wrote:
> >> > >>>> +1
> >> > >>>>
> >> > >>>> Such a site could be very useful.
> >> > >>>>
> >> > >>>> -----Original Message-----
> >> > >>>> From: openjfx-dev-bounces at openjdk.java.net
> >> > >>>> [mailto:openjfx-dev-bounces at openjdk.java.net] On Behalf Of
> >> > >>>> Daniel Zwolenski
> >> > >>>> Sent: Sunday, 28 July 2013 09:56
> >> > >>>> To: Pedro Duque Vieira
> >> > >>>> Cc: OpenJFX Mailing List
> >> > >>>> Subject: JavaFX Sightings (forked from Re: Can JavaFX do CAD?)
> >> > >>>>
> >> > >>>> The idea of a JFX Sightings page (in the tradition of the
> >> > >>>> Swing Sightings
> >> > >>>> page) has been raised before and I think is a good one.
> >> > >>>>
> >> > >>>> It deserves it's own page though, that technet section isn't
> >> > >>>> up to
> >> it
> >> > >>>> in my
> >> > >>>> opinion.
> >> > >>>>
> >> > >>>> Personally I think this would be great under the fxexperience
> >> > >>>> site
> >> as
> >> > >>>> it
> >> > >>>> partners nicely with the links of the week?
> >> > >>>>
> >> > >>>>
> >> > >>>>
> >> > >>>> On 28/07/2013, at 4:17 AM, Pedro Duque Vieira
> >> > >>>> <pedro.duquevieira at gmail.com>
> >> > >>>> wrote:
> >> > >>>>
> >> > >>>>> I have an Swing/JavaFX app, the site is: http://modellus.co
> >> > >>>>>
> >> > >>>>> How can I get it to be on that real world usecases section?
> >> > >>>>> Or
> >> does
> >> > >>>> it
> >> > >>>>> not have the necessary requirements to be in it?
> >> > >>>>>
> >> > >>>>> Thanks, best regards,
> >> > >>>>>
> >> > >>>>> @John: On the JavaFx community site they have a section with
> >> > >>>>> references to
> >> > >>>>>> real world usecases.
> >> > >>>>>>
> >> http://www.oracle.com/technetwork/java/javafx/community/index.html
> >> > >>>>>>
> >> > >>>>>> On Sat, Jul 27, 2013 at 1:40 AM, John C. Turnbull
> >> > >>>>>> <ozemale at ozemail.com.au
> >> > >>>>>>> wrote:
> >> > >>>>>>> Like Daniel said, none of what we say is in any way a
> >> > >>>>>>> criticism
> >> of
> >> > >>>>>>> the JavaFX development team who, in my view and that of the
> >> entire
> >> > >>>>>>> community, are doing an awesome job.
> >> > >>>>>>>
> >> > >>>>>>>
> >> > >>>>>>>
> >> > >>>>>>> For mine, all the shortcomings of JavaFX (perceived or
> >> > >>>>>>> actual)
> >> can
> >> > >>>>>>> be
> >> > >>>>>> blown
> >> > >>>>>>> away if I could just demonstrate what JavaFX is really
> >> > >>>>>>> capable
> >> of.
> >> > >>>>>>>
> >> > >>>>>>>
> >> > >>>>>>>
> >> > >>>>>>> We have Ensemble from Oracle and also Ensemble from JFXtras
> >> (whose
> >> > >>>>>>> demo incidentally doesn't run since Java 7 Update 21).
> >> > >>>>>>> With
> >> Oracle
> >> > >>>>
> >> > >>>>>>> Ensemble
> >> > >>>>>> we
> >> > >>>>>>> can see that JavaFX has quite a nice set of basic controls
> >> > >>>>>>> and
> >> that
> >> > >>>>
> >> > >>>>>>> it at least supports very simple animations. With JFXtras
> >> Ensemble
> >> > >>>>
> >> > >>>>>>> we can see that very nice controls are possible but
> >> unfortunately
> >> > >>>>>>> many of these are
> >> > >>>>>> of
> >> > >>>>>>> a rather "whimsical" nature and not the kind of control you
> >> would
> >> > >>>>>>> use in everyday business apps.
> >> > >>>>>>>
> >> > >>>>>>>
> >> > >>>>>>>
> >> > >>>>>>> What else is there?
> >> > >>>>>>>
> >> > >>>>>>>
> >> > >>>>>>>
> >> > >>>>>>> Of course we have rock stars like Gerrit Grunwald who
> >> > >>>>>>> frequently post awesome controls and code snippets but we
> >> > >>>>>>> really need
> >> > >>>> something
> >> > >>>>>>> that
> >> > >>>>>> brings
> >> > >>>>>>> it altogether in a kick-arse showcase. Preferably a whole
> >> suite of
> >> > >>>>>> killer
> >> > >>>>>>> apps that highlights everything JavaFX is capable of.
> >> > >>>>>>>
> >> > >>>>>>>
> >> > >>>>>>>
> >> > >>>>>>> Yes, that would require a lot of effort but IMHO it is
> >> absolutely
> >> > >>>>>>> worth
> >> > >>>>>> it.
> >> > >>>>>>> Without it, people like me really struggle to sell JavaFX
> >> > >>>>>>> or
> >> even
> >> > >>>>>>> get a handle on its true potential. I can promise people
> >> > >>>>>>> that
> >> more
> >> > >>>>
> >> > >>>>>>> advanced things are "possible" but given that they write
> >> > >>>>>>> the cheques, they need to see it for themselves.
> >> > >>>>>>>
> >> > >>>>>>>
> >> > >>>>>>>
> >> > >>>>>>> And how about a website of JavaFX reference sites? There
> >> > >>>>>>> must
> >> be
> >> > >>>>>>> big companies out there using it right?
> >> > >>>>>>>
> >> > >>>>>>>
> >> > >>>>>>>
> >> > >>>>>>> In the end it doesn't matter if I personally see enormous
> >> potential
> >> > >>>>
> >> > >>>>>>> for JavaFX if I cannot convince others to see what I see.
> >> > >>>>>>>
> >> > >>>>>>>
> >> > >>>>>>>
> >> > >>>>>>> -jct
> >> > >>>>>>>
> >> > >>>>>>>
> >> > >>>>>>>
> >> > >>>>>>> From: Daniel Zwolenski [mailto:zonski at gmail.com]
> >> > >>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, 27 July 2013 09:12
> >> > >>>>>>> To: John C. Turnbull
> >> > >>>>>>> Cc: Richard Bair; openjfx-dev at openjdk.java.net
> >> > >>>>>>> Subject: Re: Can JavaFX do CAD?
> >> > >>>>>>>
> >> > >>>>>>>
> >> > >>>>>>>
> >> > >>>>>>> +1
> >> > >>>>>>>
> >> > >>>>>>>
> >> > >>>>>>>
> >> > >>>>>>> I've failed to convince multiple clients that they should
> >> > >>>>>>> use
> >> JFX
> >> > >>>>>>> because of
> >> > >>>>>>>
> >> > >>>>>>>
> >> > >>>>>>> a) lack of examples of what it can really do, and how to
> >> > >>>>>>> make
> >> it do
> >> > >>>>
> >> > >>>>>>> that (e.g. in enterprise space we have
> >> > >>>>>>> http://static.springsource.org/docs/petclinic.html)
> >> > >>>>>>>
> >> > >>>>>>> b) lack of any big or notable players out there actually
> >> > >>>>>>> using
> >> it,
> >> > >>>>>>> or at least publicly saying they are using it
> >> > >>>>>>>
> >> > >>>>>>> c) the deployment hassles vs the ease of html app
> >> > >>>>>>> deployment and
> >> > >>>> the
> >> > >>>>>>> true cross-platform-ness of html
> >> > >>>>>>>
> >> > >>>>>>>
> >> > >>>>>>>
> >> > >>>>>>> After actually getting one client to trust me on it and use
> >> > >>>>>>> it
> >> on a
> >> > >>>>
> >> > >>>>>>> real, commercial app (startup), I hit problems with
> >> > >>>>>>> performance (broad interpretation of the term, not
> >> > >>>>>>> 'framerate'), crippling deployment and
> >> > >>>>>> auto
> >> > >>>>>>> updating issues, missing basic features (e.g. maximise
> >> > >>>>>>> button, coming in
> >> > >>>>>>> 2014 I believe?), unpredictability of CSS styling, and a
> >> > >>>>>>> lack of best practices for things like how to do CAD-like
> >> > >>>>>>> diagrams (not
> >> so
> >> > >>>>>>> much render performance but zooming, panning, mouse input,
> >> > >>>> layering,
> >> > >>>> dragging, etc).
> >> > >>>>>>>
> >> > >>>>>>>
> >> > >>>>>>>
> >> > >>>>>>> Like John, I've been guilty of letting my frustration show
> >> > >>>>>>> in
> >> these
> >> > >>>>>> forums.
> >> > >>>>>>> Like John, it's because I want so badly for JavaFX to be
> >> > >>>>>>> the platform I develop on, it has the potential to be
> >> > >>>>>>> awesome, but things (that seem obvious and small to me)
> >> > >>>>>>> completely stop it
> >> from
> >> > >>>>>>> being usable in a real world situation for me.
> >> > >>>>>>>
> >> > >>>>>>>
> >> > >>>>>>>
> >> > >>>>>>> It's not that we think the JFX team aren't slogging their
> >> > >>>>>>> guts
> >> out,
> >> > >>>>>> clearly
> >> > >>>>>>> you are. It's just that in some key areas, there are
> >> > >>>>>>> small-ish blocks
> >> > >>>>>> that
> >> > >>>>>>> stop the whole rocket from launching. To then see a whole
> >> > >>>>>>> lot of effort
> >> > >>>>>> be
> >> > >>>>>>> poured into things like binary CSS/FXML compilation, Pi
> >> > >>>>>>> platform support (that's more important than iOS/Android,
> >> > >>>>>>> really?), web deployment
> >> > >>>>>> patches,
> >> > >>>>>>> or even 3D (as cool as that is), just knocks me about.
> >> > >>>>>>> Obviously your priorities are coming from somewhere
> >> > >>>>>>> different to ours, but
> >> > >>>> the
> >> > >>>>>>> way you prioritise is unfathomable to me and that
> >> > >>>>>>> definitely
> >> adds
> >> > >>>> to
> >> > >>>>>>> the frustration.
> >> > >>>>>>>
> >> > >>>>>>>
> >> > >>>>>>>
> >> > >>>>>>> At this stage, I am not suggesting my clients use JFX (I
> >> actively
> >> > >>>>>>> discourage them from it, in their interest). Mobile is the
> >> > >>>>>>> area
> >> > >>>> that
> >> > >>>>>>> has the
> >> > >>>>>> potential
> >> > >>>>>>> to bring JFX back into usable for me as it can compete
> >> > >>>>>>> easier
> >> with
> >> > >>>>>>> the current technologies (which are all crap). Maybe if
> >> > >>>>>>> that
> >> ends
> >> > >>>> up
> >> > >>>>>>> working
> >> > >>>>>> (a
> >> > >>>>>>> long, long road to go on that and very much an 'if') then
> >> > >>>>>>> it
> >> will
> >> > >>>>>>> seep
> >> > >>>>>> back
> >> > >>>>>>> into the desktop for me, but at a minimum the desktop
> >> > >>>>>>> deployment options will need to be improved before that's
> >> > >>>>>>> even a
> >> possibility.
> >> > >>>>>>>
> >> > >>>>>>>
> >> > >>>>>>> I've come to accept that I am not in the primary target
> >> > >>>>>>> audience
> >> > >>>> for
> >> > >>>>>>> JavaFX, maybe a secondary target. I don't understand who
> >> > >>>>>>> the
> >> > >>>> primary
> >> > >>>>>>> target is though, and knowing/accepting doesn't make it any
> >> > >>>>>>> less frustrating. I
> >> > >>>>>> keep
> >> > >>>>>>> involved in the hope that I might get a usable platform
> >> somewhere
> >> > >>>>>>> along
> >> > >>>>>> the
> >> > >>>>>>> way but it's more of a hope than a belief.
> >> > >>>>>>>
> >> > >>>>>>>
> >> > >>>>>>>
> >> > >>>>>>> So nothing really new above, but just adding my voice to
> John's.
> >> > >>>>>>> JavaFX
> >> > >>>>>> is
> >> > >>>>>>> definitely not production ready for me, my clients and the
> >> types of
> >> > >>>>
> >> > >>>>>>> apps
> >> > >>>>>> I
> >> > >>>>>>> build (e.g. consumer facing online systems,
> >> enterprise/backoffice
> >> > >>>>>> systems,
> >> > >>>>>>> form/data systems, diagramming systems). One day I hope it
> >> > >>>>>>> will
> >> be,
> >> > >>>>
> >> > >>>>>>> but it's moving extremely slowly or not at all in the areas
> >> > >>>>>>> that would make it so for me. Meanwhile the competitors
> >> > >>>>>>> (primarily JavaScript based solutions) are improving
> >> > >>>>>>> rapidly in the areas
> >> > >>>> where
> >> > >>>>>>> they have traditionally been weak.
> >> > >>>>>>>
> >> > >>>>>>>
> >> > >>>>>>>
> >> > >>>>>>>
> >> > >>>>>>>
> >> > >>>>>>> On Sat, Jul 27, 2013 at 8:30 AM, John C. Turnbull <
> >> > >>>>>> ozemale at ozemail.com.au
> >> > >>>>>>> <mailto:ozemale at ozemail.com.au> > wrote:
> >> > >>>>>>>
> >> > >>>>>>> Hi Richard,
> >> > >>>>>>>
> >> > >>>>>>> I have to stop posting late at night, that one came across
> >> > >>>>>>> as
> >> > >>>> really
> >> > >>>>>> ANGRY!
> >> > >>>>>>>
> >> > >>>>>>> It's not anger, it's passion... and frustration.
> >> > >>>>>>>
> >> > >>>>>>> I am frustrated because I spend much of my day trying to
> >> convince
> >> > >>>> my
> >> > >>>>>>> employer that we should be using JavaFX. They ask me
> >> > >>>>>>> questions
> >> > >>>> like:
> >> > >>>>>>>
> >> > >>>>>>> "What happens if Oracle abandons JavaFX just like Sun did
> >> > >>>>>>> with
> >> JMF,
> >> > >>>>>> Java3D,
> >> > >>>>>>> JOGL etc. ?"
> >> > >>>>>>>
> >> > >>>>>>> I say:
> >> > >>>>>>>
> >> > >>>>>>> "This is Oracle, not Sun."
> >> > >>>>>>>
> >> > >>>>>>> They say:
> >> > >>>>>>>
> >> > >>>>>>> "Can you show me what JavaFX can do? There must be examples
> >> > >>>>>>> out there right?"
> >> > >>>>>>>
> >> > >>>>>>> And I say:
> >> > >>>>>>>
> >> > >>>>>>> "Sure, here's Ensemble."
> >> > >>>>>>>
> >> > >>>>>>> They say:
> >> > >>>>>>>
> >> > >>>>>>> "OK, so it has a nice set of basic controls and can do
> >> > >>>>>>> simple animations but what about more complex things like
> Flash?"
> >> > >>>>>>>
> >> > >>>>>>> ...hence the dancing cat reference.
> >> > >>>>>>>
> >> > >>>>>>> It's not that my employer *needs* dancing cats, it's just
> >> > >>>>>>> that
> >> they
> >> > >>>>
> >> > >>>>>>> need
> >> > >>>>>> to
> >> > >>>>>>> see that there is more to JavaFX than red circle
> >> > >>>>>>> transitions. I can't
> >> > >>>>>> even
> >> > >>>>>>> prove to them that JavaFX is capable of dancing cats. They
> >> don't
> >> > >>>>>>> have
> >> > >>>>>> the
> >> > >>>>>>> resources to fund me to develop something more
> >> > >>>>>>> sophisticated but they
> >> > >>>>>> tell
> >> > >>>>>>> me that if JavaFX truly was a "mature" technology (like I
> >> > >>>>>>> tell
> >> > >>>> them)
> >> > >>>>>>> then where are all the examples?
> >> > >>>>>>>
> >> > >>>>>>> I am finding it difficult to convince them that JavaFX is
> >> > >>>> production
> >> > >>>>>> ready
> >> > >>>>>>> and is not still in "experimental" mode because I am unable
> >> > >>>>>>> to
> >> > >>>>>> demonstrate
> >> > >>>>>>> its true capabilities or refer them to many examples of
> >> > >>>>>>> people
> >> (and
> >> > >>>>
> >> > >>>>>>> I
> >> > >>>>>> mean
> >> > >>>>>>> big companies) actually using it.
> >> > >>>>>>>
> >> > >>>>>>> The main concerns of my employer and I think many companies
> >> > >>>>>>> in a similar situation is that JavaFX won't survive long
> >> > >>>>>>> term and
> >> that
> >> > >>>> it
> >> > >>>>>>> is only
> >> > >>>>>> really
> >> > >>>>>>> suitable for form based applications. Then of course there
> >> > >>>>>>> is
> >> the
> >> > >>>>>>> whole
> >> > >>>>>>> "HTML5 runs on all platforms" argument but that's another
> >> story...
> >> > >>>>>>>
> >> > >>>>>>> So this is why I think it's imperative that Oracle invests
> >> > >>>>>>> in developing
> >> > >>>>>> a
> >> > >>>>>>> true showcase application for JavaFX. Something that
> >> non-technical
> >> > >>>>>> people
> >> > >>>>>>> (like managers who make decisions about where the money
> >> > >>>>>>> goes)
> >> can
> >> > >>>>>>> look at it and go "wow!".
> >> > >>>>>>>
> >> > >>>>>>> I am just not getting my managers to go "wow" at what I can
> >> > >>>>>>> show them
> >> > >>>>>> with
> >> > >>>>>>> JavaFX at the moment.
> >> > >>>>>>>
> >> > >>>>>>> Every comment or apparent criticism I post about JavaFX is
> >> > >>>>>>> from
> >> the
> >> > >>>>
> >> > >>>>>>> perspective that I am trying to deal with real-world
> >> > >>>>>>> problems
> >> and
> >> > >>>>>>> people who require proof (such as demos, reference sites
> >> > >>>>>>> etc.)
> >> and
> >> > >>>>>>> not because I myself think JavaFX is not up to scratch.
> >> > >>>>>>>
> >> > >>>>>>> It's quite the opposite actually.
> >> > >>>>>>>
> >> > >>>>>>> I am a very, very strong believer and supporter of JavaFX
> >> > >>>>>>> and
> >> have
> >> > >>>>>>> many reasons both personal and professional as to why I
> >> > >>>>>>> want it
> >> to
> >> > >>>>>>> be a
> >> > >>>>>> massive
> >> > >>>>>>> success. As I have said before, there are plenty of people
> >> > >>>>>>> who praise JavaFX and tend to avoid the very real issues
> >> > >>>>>>> that are restricting its adoption. I just think we have to
> >> > >>>>>>> face these
> >> > >>>> issues
> >> > >>>>>>> head on if we are to compete in what is a very cut-throat
> >> industry.
> >> > >>>>>>>
> >> > >>>>>>> -jct
> >> > >>>>>>>
> >> > >>>>>>>
> >> > >>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
> >> > >>>>>>> From: Richard Bair [mailto:richard.bair at oracle.com
> >> > >>>>>>> <mailto:richard.bair at oracle.com> ]
> >> > >>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, 27 July 2013 01:40
> >> > >>>>>>> To: John C. Turnbull
> >> > >>>>>>> Cc: 'Daniel Zwolenski'; openjfx-dev at openjdk.java.net
> >> > >>>>>>> <mailto:openjfx-dev at openjdk.java.net>
> >> > >>>>>>> Subject: Re: Can JavaFX do CAD?
> >> > >>>>>>>
> >> > >>>>>>>> For Flash, there are literally millions of examples of
> >> > >>>>>>>> fancy/complex/impressive graphics and animations out there
> >> > >>>>>>>> that
> >> > >>>> can
> >> > >>>>>>>> be really impressive at times. I have not seen ONE such
> >> example
> >> > >>>> in
> >> > >>>>>> JavaFX!
> >> > >>>>>>>
> >> > >>>>>>> Point to one?
> >> > >>>>>>>
> >> > >>>>>>> Have you seen any of the JavaOne examples? The movie wall
> >> > >>>>>>> or
> >> movies
> >> > >>>>
> >> > >>>>>>> on a stack of 3D cubes was pretty good. But I guess you're
> >> > >>>>>>> not interested in
> >> > >>>>>> the
> >> > >>>>>>> 3D aspect? What is it you are looking for exactly?
> >> > >>>>>>> Different
> >> people
> >> > >>>>
> >> > >>>>>>> (on this
> >> > >>>>>>> list) have had different perceptions on both (a) what's
> >> important
> >> > >>>>>>> and (b) what kind of graphics they're interested in. Most
> >> > >>>>>>> people would deride the dancing cat as being totally
> >> > >>>>>>> irrelevant to the types of applications they're trying to
> >> > >>>>>>> build (the basis for
> >> much
> >> > >>>> of
> >> > >>>>>>> flash animations is shape
> >> > >>>>>> morphing,
> >> > >>>>>>> you can find some code here
> >> > >>>> https://gist.github.com/gontard/5029764).
> >> > >>>>>>>
> >> > >>>>>>> On the other hand, JavaFX is not a replacement for OpenGL.
> >> Drawing
> >> > >>>>>>> 25 million lines is just not something we can do right now,
> >> > >>>>>>> especially in a resource constrained environment. I've
> >> > >>>>>>> already commented on the memory overhead (which would
> >> > >>>>>>> continue to be an issue even if the drawing part of the
> problem were solved).
> >> > >>>>>>>
> >> > >>>>>>> I've pushed to graphics repo the StretchyGrid, which is
> >> > >>>>>>> about
> >> 300k
> >> > >>>>>>> line nodes (the actual amount is variable, see the javadoc
> >> > >>>>>>> comments). At 300k nodes the scene graph overhead is
> >> > >>>>>>> negligible
> >> on
> >> > >>>>>>> the FX side, dirty opts
> >> > >>>>>> is
> >> > >>>>>>> taking a long time to run, and painting is really slow.
> >> > >>>>>>>
> >> > >>>>>>> PULSE: 347 [122ms:222ms]
> >> > >>>>>>> T12 (8 +0ms): CSS Pass
> >> > >>>>>>> T12 (8 +0ms): Layout Pass
> >> > >>>>>>> T12 (47 +53ms): Waiting for previous rendering
> >> > >>>>>>> T12 (100 +1ms): Copy state to render graph
> >> > >>>>>>> T10 (101 +16ms): Dirty Opts Computed
> >> > >>>>>>> T10 (117 +105ms): Painted
> >> > >>>>>>> Counters:
> >> > >>>>>>> Nodes rendered: 306565
> >> > >>>>>>> Nodes visited during render: 306565
> >> > >>>>>>>
> >> > >>>>>>> If I were doing this by hand in open GL, I think the
> >> > >>>>>>> drawing
> >> would
> >> > >>>>>>> be essentially free, if I used LINES with GL anti-aliasing,
> >> > >>>>>>> I
> >> could
> >> > >>>>
> >> > >>>>>>> send 'em all down to the card in a single shot (and if I
> >> > >>>>>>> had a modern GL I could
> >> > >>>>>> do
> >> > >>>>>>> LINES + FXAA or one of the other per-pixel AA algorithms
> >> available
> >> > >>>>>>> and it would turn out pretty nice). Because our shapes
> >> > >>>>>>> don't implement the
> >> > >>>>>> non-AA
> >> > >>>>>>> path, and our AA involves software rasterization and
> >> > >>>>>>> uploading
> >> of
> >> > >>>>>> pixels, I
> >> > >>>>>>> expect that to be the main source of the 105ms time being
> >> > >>>>>>> spent
> >> > >>>> here.
> >> > >>>>>>>
> >> > >>>>>>> Also I noticed (by turning on prism.showdirty=true) that
> >> > >>>>>>> the
> >> entire
> >> > >>>>
> >> > >>>>>>> grid
> >> > >>>>>> is
> >> > >>>>>>> being painted every time, even though visually it looks
> >> > >>>>>>> like
> >> only a
> >> > >>>>
> >> > >>>>>>> small subset actually needs to be changed. But that's
> >> > >>>>>>> really a
> >> > >>>> minor
> >> > >>>>>>> thing, as
> >> > >>>>>> I
> >> > >>>>>>> said, drawing this many lines should basically be free if I
> >> > >>>>>>> configure "smooth" to false in the app. Except that right
> >> > >>>>>>> now
> >> it is
> >> > >>>>
> >> > >>>>>>> totally not implemented (in NGShape):
> >> > >>>>>>>
> >> > >>>>>>> public void setAntialiased(boolean aa) {
> >> > >>>>>>> // We don't support aliased shapes at this time }
> >> > >>>>>>>
> >> > >>>>>>> The point of stretchy grid is not to say "wow look at this
> >> amazing
> >> > >>>> demo".
> >> > >>>>>>> The point is to say "what happens if I put in 300K nodes.
> >> > >>>>>>> Where
> >> > >>>> does
> >> > >>>>>>> the system start to fall over?".
> >> > >>>>>>>
> >> > >>>>>>> Richard=
> >> > >>>>>>>
> >> > >>>>>>>
> >> > >>>>>>>
> >> > >>>>>>>
> >> > >>>>>
> >> > >>>>>
> >> > >>>>> --
> >> > >>>>> Pedro Duque Vieira
> >> > >>
> >> > >
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Sven Reimers
> >
> > * Senior Expert Software Architect
> > * NetBeans Dream Team Member: http://dreamteam.netbeans.org
> > * Community Leader NetBeans: http://community.java.net/netbeans
> > Desktop Java:
> > http://community.java.net/javadesktop
> > * Duke's Choice Award Winner 2009
> > * Blog: http://nbguru.blogspot.com
> >
> > * XING: https://www.xing.com/profile/Sven_Reimers8
> > * LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/svenreimers
> >
> > Join the NetBeans Groups:
> > * XING: http://www.xing.com/group-20148.82db20
> > * NUGM: http://haug-server.dyndns.org/display/NUGM/Home
> > * LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/groups?gid=1860468
> > http://www.linkedin.com/groups?gid=107402
> > http://www.linkedin.com/groups?gid=1684717
> > * Oracle: https://mix.oracle.com/groups/18497
> >
> >
> >
>
--
Klaus Eckelt
Brigittaplatz 23/7
1200 Wien
Klaus.Eckelt at gmail.com
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