JavaFX Sightings (forked from Re: Can JavaFX do CAD?)
Mark Fortner
phidias51 at gmail.com
Wed Aug 7 07:54:37 PDT 2013
The showcase sounds like a good idea, but if the goal is to be able to use
it to convince people that JavaFX is a viable platform, wouldn't it be
better if you could download and try the application (maybe even web start
it)? After all, the proof of the pudding is in the eating.
What about component developers? Wouldn't it be nice to showcase
components (complete with screenshots and maven/gradle snippets ala
mvnrepository.com)? Perhaps taking that a step further, wouldn't it be
nice if there was a simple way to deploy a component so that you could play
with it in an interactive showcase like Ensemble? Component developers
might be able to simply register their components on the server as Ensemble
plugins. As the user browses through the component catalog in Ensemble,
they simply select a component and it's automatically downloaded and
started. They could begin playing with it almost immediately.
What if all of that were part of a "Java Start" menu item or dock item.
Whenever you install Java, rather than being asked to install "Ask" or
some other bloatware, you get the option of installing the catalog.
Anyway, just a few ideas for getting the word out about Java (and JavaFX)
on the desktop.
Cheers,
Mark
On Wed, Aug 7, 2013 at 4:34 AM, Klaus Eckelt <klaus.eckelt at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> as i moved our MusicPlayer Project to SourceForge yesterday, I saw you
> can't select JavaFX as used GUI technology.
> I guess this should be added (i'll try to suggest it somewhere) and would
> allow to filter for FX Applications there.
>
> Regards
> //Klaus
>
> From: openjfx-dev-bounces at openjdk.java.net [mailto:
> > openjfx-dev-bounces at openjdk.java.net] On Behalf Of Sven Reimers
> > Sent: Dienstag, 6. August 2013 07:55
> > To: Richard Bair
> > Cc: openjfx mailing list; Pedro Duque Vieira
> > Subject:
> > Re: JavaFX Sightings (forked from Re: Can JavaFX do CAD?)
> >
> > So we should start and assemble them on a community JavaFX showcase page?
> >
> > Should we try to get Jim Weaver and Gerrit involved?
> >
> > -Sven
> > Am 06.08.2013 06:19 schrieb "Richard Bair" <Richard.Bair at oracle.com>:
> >
> > > Here is another one on the Oracle page:
> > > http://www.oracle.com/technetwork/java/javafx/codelse-1984189.html
> > >
> > > Richard
> > >
> > > On Aug 4, 2013, at 6:15 AM, Sven Reimers <sven.reimers at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi,
> > >
> > > from my perspective a showcase list saying technology X is used by the
> > > top ten largest engineering companies is always very nice to convince
> > > people they are not basing a long term project/product on an used, not
> > > widespread technology.
> > >
> > > So for me building a showcase page is a key thing for helping in the
> > > decision making process.
> > >
> > > -Sven
> > >
> > >
> > > On Sun, Aug 4, 2013 at 10:12 AM, Johan Vos <johan at lodgon.com> wrote:
> > >
> > >> Hi,
> > >>
> > >> I agree such an overview page would definitely help, but the go/no-go
> > >> decisions I often see have less to do with convincing customers about
> > >> JavaFX being the right technology. Customers have a number of
> > >> requirements, and if I can tell them JavaFX is capable of doing that,
> > >> they trust me (and they will blame me when I'm wrong).
> > >>
> > >> The key bummer I've seen so far is (yet again) wide deployment. "It
> > >> should run on tablets" and "Our Customers should be able to use
> > >> [install] this very easily".
> > >> I am very much aware of the progress being made in both areas, so I'm
> > >> not complaining at all -- but there is a lot of work to be done.
> > >> Just want to set expectations right: a cool overview of what is
> > >> already achieved with JavaFX is not going to convince all potential
> > >> customers -- in my experience the deployment is still the major
> > >> reasons why a number of companies are not in favor of JavaFX yet.
> > >>
> > >> - Johan
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> 2013/8/4 Anton Epple <toni.epple at eppleton.de>
> > >>
> > >> > A combination of a page describing an individual application, like
> > >> > the
> > >> one
> > >> > you linked here, would be one part and -more important- a page that
> > >> lists
> > >> > *all* the applications with a screenshot and a short description.
> > >> > The latter would be important, because it's a showcase for decision
> > >> > makers
> > >> who
> > >> > are yet undecided if JavaFX is the right technology.
> > >> >
> > >> > Before that page existed for NB Platform, I had the same
> > >> > discussions I
> > >> now
> > >> > have for potential JavaFX projects. Developers are in doubt if the
> > >> > technology is mature/performant/secure/whatever enough for their
> > >> > large/unique/graphically demanding/etc. project. After they see the
> > >> page,
> > >> > they're convinced that it can be done.
> > >> >
> > >> > It's especially useful if you need to convince a team. Typically
> > >> > there's at least one person in favor of a different technology (for
> > >> > JavaFX it's typically GWT) and such a page is a great FUD-killer.
> > >> >
> > >> > Am 01.08.2013 um 22:40 schrieb Richard Bair <
> Richard.Bair at oracle.com
> > >:
> > >> >
> > >> > > Something I guess would go on such a page?
> > >> > >
> > >> > > http://fxexperience.com/2013/08/javafx-hd-menus-on-raspberrypi/
> > >> > >
> > >> > > On Aug 1, 2013, at 3:21 AM, Anton Epple <toni.epple at eppleton.de>
> > >> wrote:
> > >> > >
> > >> > >> Great idea, there's a site that does the same for NetBeans
> > >> > >> Platform
> > >> > Apps:
> > >> > >>
> > >> > >> https://platform.netbeans.org/screenshots.html
> > >> > >>
> > >> > >> I can tell from my own experience that it helps a lot in
> > >> > >> discussions
> > >> > with customers to show them that NASA, NATO, Boeing, UNO, US Army,
> > >> > and
> > >> many
> > >> > others are building on top of NB Platform.
> > >> > >>
> > >> > >> From the maintainer of this site, I know there's a lot of work
> > >> involved
> > >> > though, and you have to be very active in identifying users, and
> > >> reaching
> > >> > out to them. It's definitely not sufficient to wait for users to
> > >> > submit their applications. Sometimes it can take a couple of years
> > >> > from first contact to a screenshot. That said it's absolutely worth
> > >> > it, and I would volunteer to help in any way I can.
> > >> > >>
> > >> > >> Toni
> > >> > >>
> > >> > >> --
> > >> > >> Anton Epple
> > >> > >>
> > >> > >>
> > >> > >>
> > >> > >> Am 28.07.2013 um 02:38 schrieb Jonathan Giles <
> > >> > jonathan.giles at oracle.com>:
> > >> > >>
> > >> > >>> This is something that Jasper actually brought up just this
> > >> > >>> morning
> > >> > with Richard and I (wrt fxexperience hosting it). I suspect we may
> > >> > get something underway in the coming weeks. Of course, it depends
> > >> > on the community getting in touch with us and letting us talk about
> > >> > them - so
> > >> much
> > >> > of the JavaFX world is behind corporate firewalls, where talking
> > >> > about
> > >> your
> > >> > work is generally frowned upon. In any case, for those of you that
> > >> > can
> > >> talk
> > >> > about your work, please email one of us off-list.
> > >> > >>> -- Jonathan
> > >> > >>> Sent from a touch device. Please excuse my brevity.
> > >> > >>>
> > >> > >>> "John C. Turnbull" <ozemale at ozemail.com.au> wrote:
> > >> > >>>> +1
> > >> > >>>>
> > >> > >>>> Such a site could be very useful.
> > >> > >>>>
> > >> > >>>> -----Original Message-----
> > >> > >>>> From: openjfx-dev-bounces at openjdk.java.net
> > >> > >>>> [mailto:openjfx-dev-bounces at openjdk.java.net] On Behalf Of
> > >> > >>>> Daniel Zwolenski
> > >> > >>>> Sent: Sunday, 28 July 2013 09:56
> > >> > >>>> To: Pedro Duque Vieira
> > >> > >>>> Cc: OpenJFX Mailing List
> > >> > >>>> Subject: JavaFX Sightings (forked from Re: Can JavaFX do CAD?)
> > >> > >>>>
> > >> > >>>> The idea of a JFX Sightings page (in the tradition of the
> > >> > >>>> Swing Sightings
> > >> > >>>> page) has been raised before and I think is a good one.
> > >> > >>>>
> > >> > >>>> It deserves it's own page though, that technet section isn't
> > >> > >>>> up to
> > >> it
> > >> > >>>> in my
> > >> > >>>> opinion.
> > >> > >>>>
> > >> > >>>> Personally I think this would be great under the fxexperience
> > >> > >>>> site
> > >> as
> > >> > >>>> it
> > >> > >>>> partners nicely with the links of the week?
> > >> > >>>>
> > >> > >>>>
> > >> > >>>>
> > >> > >>>> On 28/07/2013, at 4:17 AM, Pedro Duque Vieira
> > >> > >>>> <pedro.duquevieira at gmail.com>
> > >> > >>>> wrote:
> > >> > >>>>
> > >> > >>>>> I have an Swing/JavaFX app, the site is: http://modellus.co
> > >> > >>>>>
> > >> > >>>>> How can I get it to be on that real world usecases section?
> > >> > >>>>> Or
> > >> does
> > >> > >>>> it
> > >> > >>>>> not have the necessary requirements to be in it?
> > >> > >>>>>
> > >> > >>>>> Thanks, best regards,
> > >> > >>>>>
> > >> > >>>>> @John: On the JavaFx community site they have a section with
> > >> > >>>>> references to
> > >> > >>>>>> real world usecases.
> > >> > >>>>>>
> > >> http://www.oracle.com/technetwork/java/javafx/community/index.html
> > >> > >>>>>>
> > >> > >>>>>> On Sat, Jul 27, 2013 at 1:40 AM, John C. Turnbull
> > >> > >>>>>> <ozemale at ozemail.com.au
> > >> > >>>>>>> wrote:
> > >> > >>>>>>> Like Daniel said, none of what we say is in any way a
> > >> > >>>>>>> criticism
> > >> of
> > >> > >>>>>>> the JavaFX development team who, in my view and that of the
> > >> entire
> > >> > >>>>>>> community, are doing an awesome job.
> > >> > >>>>>>>
> > >> > >>>>>>>
> > >> > >>>>>>>
> > >> > >>>>>>> For mine, all the shortcomings of JavaFX (perceived or
> > >> > >>>>>>> actual)
> > >> can
> > >> > >>>>>>> be
> > >> > >>>>>> blown
> > >> > >>>>>>> away if I could just demonstrate what JavaFX is really
> > >> > >>>>>>> capable
> > >> of.
> > >> > >>>>>>>
> > >> > >>>>>>>
> > >> > >>>>>>>
> > >> > >>>>>>> We have Ensemble from Oracle and also Ensemble from JFXtras
> > >> (whose
> > >> > >>>>>>> demo incidentally doesn't run since Java 7 Update 21).
> > >> > >>>>>>> With
> > >> Oracle
> > >> > >>>>
> > >> > >>>>>>> Ensemble
> > >> > >>>>>> we
> > >> > >>>>>>> can see that JavaFX has quite a nice set of basic controls
> > >> > >>>>>>> and
> > >> that
> > >> > >>>>
> > >> > >>>>>>> it at least supports very simple animations. With JFXtras
> > >> Ensemble
> > >> > >>>>
> > >> > >>>>>>> we can see that very nice controls are possible but
> > >> unfortunately
> > >> > >>>>>>> many of these are
> > >> > >>>>>> of
> > >> > >>>>>>> a rather "whimsical" nature and not the kind of control you
> > >> would
> > >> > >>>>>>> use in everyday business apps.
> > >> > >>>>>>>
> > >> > >>>>>>>
> > >> > >>>>>>>
> > >> > >>>>>>> What else is there?
> > >> > >>>>>>>
> > >> > >>>>>>>
> > >> > >>>>>>>
> > >> > >>>>>>> Of course we have rock stars like Gerrit Grunwald who
> > >> > >>>>>>> frequently post awesome controls and code snippets but we
> > >> > >>>>>>> really need
> > >> > >>>> something
> > >> > >>>>>>> that
> > >> > >>>>>> brings
> > >> > >>>>>>> it altogether in a kick-arse showcase. Preferably a whole
> > >> suite of
> > >> > >>>>>> killer
> > >> > >>>>>>> apps that highlights everything JavaFX is capable of.
> > >> > >>>>>>>
> > >> > >>>>>>>
> > >> > >>>>>>>
> > >> > >>>>>>> Yes, that would require a lot of effort but IMHO it is
> > >> absolutely
> > >> > >>>>>>> worth
> > >> > >>>>>> it.
> > >> > >>>>>>> Without it, people like me really struggle to sell JavaFX
> > >> > >>>>>>> or
> > >> even
> > >> > >>>>>>> get a handle on its true potential. I can promise people
> > >> > >>>>>>> that
> > >> more
> > >> > >>>>
> > >> > >>>>>>> advanced things are "possible" but given that they write
> > >> > >>>>>>> the cheques, they need to see it for themselves.
> > >> > >>>>>>>
> > >> > >>>>>>>
> > >> > >>>>>>>
> > >> > >>>>>>> And how about a website of JavaFX reference sites? There
> > >> > >>>>>>> must
> > >> be
> > >> > >>>>>>> big companies out there using it right?
> > >> > >>>>>>>
> > >> > >>>>>>>
> > >> > >>>>>>>
> > >> > >>>>>>> In the end it doesn't matter if I personally see enormous
> > >> potential
> > >> > >>>>
> > >> > >>>>>>> for JavaFX if I cannot convince others to see what I see.
> > >> > >>>>>>>
> > >> > >>>>>>>
> > >> > >>>>>>>
> > >> > >>>>>>> -jct
> > >> > >>>>>>>
> > >> > >>>>>>>
> > >> > >>>>>>>
> > >> > >>>>>>> From: Daniel Zwolenski [mailto:zonski at gmail.com]
> > >> > >>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, 27 July 2013 09:12
> > >> > >>>>>>> To: John C. Turnbull
> > >> > >>>>>>> Cc: Richard Bair; openjfx-dev at openjdk.java.net
> > >> > >>>>>>> Subject: Re: Can JavaFX do CAD?
> > >> > >>>>>>>
> > >> > >>>>>>>
> > >> > >>>>>>>
> > >> > >>>>>>> +1
> > >> > >>>>>>>
> > >> > >>>>>>>
> > >> > >>>>>>>
> > >> > >>>>>>> I've failed to convince multiple clients that they should
> > >> > >>>>>>> use
> > >> JFX
> > >> > >>>>>>> because of
> > >> > >>>>>>>
> > >> > >>>>>>>
> > >> > >>>>>>> a) lack of examples of what it can really do, and how to
> > >> > >>>>>>> make
> > >> it do
> > >> > >>>>
> > >> > >>>>>>> that (e.g. in enterprise space we have
> > >> > >>>>>>> http://static.springsource.org/docs/petclinic.html)
> > >> > >>>>>>>
> > >> > >>>>>>> b) lack of any big or notable players out there actually
> > >> > >>>>>>> using
> > >> it,
> > >> > >>>>>>> or at least publicly saying they are using it
> > >> > >>>>>>>
> > >> > >>>>>>> c) the deployment hassles vs the ease of html app
> > >> > >>>>>>> deployment and
> > >> > >>>> the
> > >> > >>>>>>> true cross-platform-ness of html
> > >> > >>>>>>>
> > >> > >>>>>>>
> > >> > >>>>>>>
> > >> > >>>>>>> After actually getting one client to trust me on it and use
> > >> > >>>>>>> it
> > >> on a
> > >> > >>>>
> > >> > >>>>>>> real, commercial app (startup), I hit problems with
> > >> > >>>>>>> performance (broad interpretation of the term, not
> > >> > >>>>>>> 'framerate'), crippling deployment and
> > >> > >>>>>> auto
> > >> > >>>>>>> updating issues, missing basic features (e.g. maximise
> > >> > >>>>>>> button, coming in
> > >> > >>>>>>> 2014 I believe?), unpredictability of CSS styling, and a
> > >> > >>>>>>> lack of best practices for things like how to do CAD-like
> > >> > >>>>>>> diagrams (not
> > >> so
> > >> > >>>>>>> much render performance but zooming, panning, mouse input,
> > >> > >>>> layering,
> > >> > >>>> dragging, etc).
> > >> > >>>>>>>
> > >> > >>>>>>>
> > >> > >>>>>>>
> > >> > >>>>>>> Like John, I've been guilty of letting my frustration show
> > >> > >>>>>>> in
> > >> these
> > >> > >>>>>> forums.
> > >> > >>>>>>> Like John, it's because I want so badly for JavaFX to be
> > >> > >>>>>>> the platform I develop on, it has the potential to be
> > >> > >>>>>>> awesome, but things (that seem obvious and small to me)
> > >> > >>>>>>> completely stop it
> > >> from
> > >> > >>>>>>> being usable in a real world situation for me.
> > >> > >>>>>>>
> > >> > >>>>>>>
> > >> > >>>>>>>
> > >> > >>>>>>> It's not that we think the JFX team aren't slogging their
> > >> > >>>>>>> guts
> > >> out,
> > >> > >>>>>> clearly
> > >> > >>>>>>> you are. It's just that in some key areas, there are
> > >> > >>>>>>> small-ish blocks
> > >> > >>>>>> that
> > >> > >>>>>>> stop the whole rocket from launching. To then see a whole
> > >> > >>>>>>> lot of effort
> > >> > >>>>>> be
> > >> > >>>>>>> poured into things like binary CSS/FXML compilation, Pi
> > >> > >>>>>>> platform support (that's more important than iOS/Android,
> > >> > >>>>>>> really?), web deployment
> > >> > >>>>>> patches,
> > >> > >>>>>>> or even 3D (as cool as that is), just knocks me about.
> > >> > >>>>>>> Obviously your priorities are coming from somewhere
> > >> > >>>>>>> different to ours, but
> > >> > >>>> the
> > >> > >>>>>>> way you prioritise is unfathomable to me and that
> > >> > >>>>>>> definitely
> > >> adds
> > >> > >>>> to
> > >> > >>>>>>> the frustration.
> > >> > >>>>>>>
> > >> > >>>>>>>
> > >> > >>>>>>>
> > >> > >>>>>>> At this stage, I am not suggesting my clients use JFX (I
> > >> actively
> > >> > >>>>>>> discourage them from it, in their interest). Mobile is the
> > >> > >>>>>>> area
> > >> > >>>> that
> > >> > >>>>>>> has the
> > >> > >>>>>> potential
> > >> > >>>>>>> to bring JFX back into usable for me as it can compete
> > >> > >>>>>>> easier
> > >> with
> > >> > >>>>>>> the current technologies (which are all crap). Maybe if
> > >> > >>>>>>> that
> > >> ends
> > >> > >>>> up
> > >> > >>>>>>> working
> > >> > >>>>>> (a
> > >> > >>>>>>> long, long road to go on that and very much an 'if') then
> > >> > >>>>>>> it
> > >> will
> > >> > >>>>>>> seep
> > >> > >>>>>> back
> > >> > >>>>>>> into the desktop for me, but at a minimum the desktop
> > >> > >>>>>>> deployment options will need to be improved before that's
> > >> > >>>>>>> even a
> > >> possibility.
> > >> > >>>>>>>
> > >> > >>>>>>>
> > >> > >>>>>>> I've come to accept that I am not in the primary target
> > >> > >>>>>>> audience
> > >> > >>>> for
> > >> > >>>>>>> JavaFX, maybe a secondary target. I don't understand who
> > >> > >>>>>>> the
> > >> > >>>> primary
> > >> > >>>>>>> target is though, and knowing/accepting doesn't make it any
> > >> > >>>>>>> less frustrating. I
> > >> > >>>>>> keep
> > >> > >>>>>>> involved in the hope that I might get a usable platform
> > >> somewhere
> > >> > >>>>>>> along
> > >> > >>>>>> the
> > >> > >>>>>>> way but it's more of a hope than a belief.
> > >> > >>>>>>>
> > >> > >>>>>>>
> > >> > >>>>>>>
> > >> > >>>>>>> So nothing really new above, but just adding my voice to
> > John's.
> > >> > >>>>>>> JavaFX
> > >> > >>>>>> is
> > >> > >>>>>>> definitely not production ready for me, my clients and the
> > >> types of
> > >> > >>>>
> > >> > >>>>>>> apps
> > >> > >>>>>> I
> > >> > >>>>>>> build (e.g. consumer facing online systems,
> > >> enterprise/backoffice
> > >> > >>>>>> systems,
> > >> > >>>>>>> form/data systems, diagramming systems). One day I hope it
> > >> > >>>>>>> will
> > >> be,
> > >> > >>>>
> > >> > >>>>>>> but it's moving extremely slowly or not at all in the areas
> > >> > >>>>>>> that would make it so for me. Meanwhile the competitors
> > >> > >>>>>>> (primarily JavaScript based solutions) are improving
> > >> > >>>>>>> rapidly in the areas
> > >> > >>>> where
> > >> > >>>>>>> they have traditionally been weak.
> > >> > >>>>>>>
> > >> > >>>>>>>
> > >> > >>>>>>>
> > >> > >>>>>>>
> > >> > >>>>>>>
> > >> > >>>>>>> On Sat, Jul 27, 2013 at 8:30 AM, John C. Turnbull <
> > >> > >>>>>> ozemale at ozemail.com.au
> > >> > >>>>>>> <mailto:ozemale at ozemail.com.au> > wrote:
> > >> > >>>>>>>
> > >> > >>>>>>> Hi Richard,
> > >> > >>>>>>>
> > >> > >>>>>>> I have to stop posting late at night, that one came across
> > >> > >>>>>>> as
> > >> > >>>> really
> > >> > >>>>>> ANGRY!
> > >> > >>>>>>>
> > >> > >>>>>>> It's not anger, it's passion... and frustration.
> > >> > >>>>>>>
> > >> > >>>>>>> I am frustrated because I spend much of my day trying to
> > >> convince
> > >> > >>>> my
> > >> > >>>>>>> employer that we should be using JavaFX. They ask me
> > >> > >>>>>>> questions
> > >> > >>>> like:
> > >> > >>>>>>>
> > >> > >>>>>>> "What happens if Oracle abandons JavaFX just like Sun did
> > >> > >>>>>>> with
> > >> JMF,
> > >> > >>>>>> Java3D,
> > >> > >>>>>>> JOGL etc. ?"
> > >> > >>>>>>>
> > >> > >>>>>>> I say:
> > >> > >>>>>>>
> > >> > >>>>>>> "This is Oracle, not Sun."
> > >> > >>>>>>>
> > >> > >>>>>>> They say:
> > >> > >>>>>>>
> > >> > >>>>>>> "Can you show me what JavaFX can do? There must be examples
> > >> > >>>>>>> out there right?"
> > >> > >>>>>>>
> > >> > >>>>>>> And I say:
> > >> > >>>>>>>
> > >> > >>>>>>> "Sure, here's Ensemble."
> > >> > >>>>>>>
> > >> > >>>>>>> They say:
> > >> > >>>>>>>
> > >> > >>>>>>> "OK, so it has a nice set of basic controls and can do
> > >> > >>>>>>> simple animations but what about more complex things like
> > Flash?"
> > >> > >>>>>>>
> > >> > >>>>>>> ...hence the dancing cat reference.
> > >> > >>>>>>>
> > >> > >>>>>>> It's not that my employer *needs* dancing cats, it's just
> > >> > >>>>>>> that
> > >> they
> > >> > >>>>
> > >> > >>>>>>> need
> > >> > >>>>>> to
> > >> > >>>>>>> see that there is more to JavaFX than red circle
> > >> > >>>>>>> transitions. I can't
> > >> > >>>>>> even
> > >> > >>>>>>> prove to them that JavaFX is capable of dancing cats. They
> > >> don't
> > >> > >>>>>>> have
> > >> > >>>>>> the
> > >> > >>>>>>> resources to fund me to develop something more
> > >> > >>>>>>> sophisticated but they
> > >> > >>>>>> tell
> > >> > >>>>>>> me that if JavaFX truly was a "mature" technology (like I
> > >> > >>>>>>> tell
> > >> > >>>> them)
> > >> > >>>>>>> then where are all the examples?
> > >> > >>>>>>>
> > >> > >>>>>>> I am finding it difficult to convince them that JavaFX is
> > >> > >>>> production
> > >> > >>>>>> ready
> > >> > >>>>>>> and is not still in "experimental" mode because I am unable
> > >> > >>>>>>> to
> > >> > >>>>>> demonstrate
> > >> > >>>>>>> its true capabilities or refer them to many examples of
> > >> > >>>>>>> people
> > >> (and
> > >> > >>>>
> > >> > >>>>>>> I
> > >> > >>>>>> mean
> > >> > >>>>>>> big companies) actually using it.
> > >> > >>>>>>>
> > >> > >>>>>>> The main concerns of my employer and I think many companies
> > >> > >>>>>>> in a similar situation is that JavaFX won't survive long
> > >> > >>>>>>> term and
> > >> that
> > >> > >>>> it
> > >> > >>>>>>> is only
> > >> > >>>>>> really
> > >> > >>>>>>> suitable for form based applications. Then of course there
> > >> > >>>>>>> is
> > >> the
> > >> > >>>>>>> whole
> > >> > >>>>>>> "HTML5 runs on all platforms" argument but that's another
> > >> story...
> > >> > >>>>>>>
> > >> > >>>>>>> So this is why I think it's imperative that Oracle invests
> > >> > >>>>>>> in developing
> > >> > >>>>>> a
> > >> > >>>>>>> true showcase application for JavaFX. Something that
> > >> non-technical
> > >> > >>>>>> people
> > >> > >>>>>>> (like managers who make decisions about where the money
> > >> > >>>>>>> goes)
> > >> can
> > >> > >>>>>>> look at it and go "wow!".
> > >> > >>>>>>>
> > >> > >>>>>>> I am just not getting my managers to go "wow" at what I can
> > >> > >>>>>>> show them
> > >> > >>>>>> with
> > >> > >>>>>>> JavaFX at the moment.
> > >> > >>>>>>>
> > >> > >>>>>>> Every comment or apparent criticism I post about JavaFX is
> > >> > >>>>>>> from
> > >> the
> > >> > >>>>
> > >> > >>>>>>> perspective that I am trying to deal with real-world
> > >> > >>>>>>> problems
> > >> and
> > >> > >>>>>>> people who require proof (such as demos, reference sites
> > >> > >>>>>>> etc.)
> > >> and
> > >> > >>>>>>> not because I myself think JavaFX is not up to scratch.
> > >> > >>>>>>>
> > >> > >>>>>>> It's quite the opposite actually.
> > >> > >>>>>>>
> > >> > >>>>>>> I am a very, very strong believer and supporter of JavaFX
> > >> > >>>>>>> and
> > >> have
> > >> > >>>>>>> many reasons both personal and professional as to why I
> > >> > >>>>>>> want it
> > >> to
> > >> > >>>>>>> be a
> > >> > >>>>>> massive
> > >> > >>>>>>> success. As I have said before, there are plenty of people
> > >> > >>>>>>> who praise JavaFX and tend to avoid the very real issues
> > >> > >>>>>>> that are restricting its adoption. I just think we have to
> > >> > >>>>>>> face these
> > >> > >>>> issues
> > >> > >>>>>>> head on if we are to compete in what is a very cut-throat
> > >> industry.
> > >> > >>>>>>>
> > >> > >>>>>>> -jct
> > >> > >>>>>>>
> > >> > >>>>>>>
> > >> > >>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
> > >> > >>>>>>> From: Richard Bair [mailto:richard.bair at oracle.com
> > >> > >>>>>>> <mailto:richard.bair at oracle.com> ]
> > >> > >>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, 27 July 2013 01:40
> > >> > >>>>>>> To: John C. Turnbull
> > >> > >>>>>>> Cc: 'Daniel Zwolenski'; openjfx-dev at openjdk.java.net
> > >> > >>>>>>> <mailto:openjfx-dev at openjdk.java.net>
> > >> > >>>>>>> Subject: Re: Can JavaFX do CAD?
> > >> > >>>>>>>
> > >> > >>>>>>>> For Flash, there are literally millions of examples of
> > >> > >>>>>>>> fancy/complex/impressive graphics and animations out there
> > >> > >>>>>>>> that
> > >> > >>>> can
> > >> > >>>>>>>> be really impressive at times. I have not seen ONE such
> > >> example
> > >> > >>>> in
> > >> > >>>>>> JavaFX!
> > >> > >>>>>>>
> > >> > >>>>>>> Point to one?
> > >> > >>>>>>>
> > >> > >>>>>>> Have you seen any of the JavaOne examples? The movie wall
> > >> > >>>>>>> or
> > >> movies
> > >> > >>>>
> > >> > >>>>>>> on a stack of 3D cubes was pretty good. But I guess you're
> > >> > >>>>>>> not interested in
> > >> > >>>>>> the
> > >> > >>>>>>> 3D aspect? What is it you are looking for exactly?
> > >> > >>>>>>> Different
> > >> people
> > >> > >>>>
> > >> > >>>>>>> (on this
> > >> > >>>>>>> list) have had different perceptions on both (a) what's
> > >> important
> > >> > >>>>>>> and (b) what kind of graphics they're interested in. Most
> > >> > >>>>>>> people would deride the dancing cat as being totally
> > >> > >>>>>>> irrelevant to the types of applications they're trying to
> > >> > >>>>>>> build (the basis for
> > >> much
> > >> > >>>> of
> > >> > >>>>>>> flash animations is shape
> > >> > >>>>>> morphing,
> > >> > >>>>>>> you can find some code here
> > >> > >>>> https://gist.github.com/gontard/5029764).
> > >> > >>>>>>>
> > >> > >>>>>>> On the other hand, JavaFX is not a replacement for OpenGL.
> > >> Drawing
> > >> > >>>>>>> 25 million lines is just not something we can do right now,
> > >> > >>>>>>> especially in a resource constrained environment. I've
> > >> > >>>>>>> already commented on the memory overhead (which would
> > >> > >>>>>>> continue to be an issue even if the drawing part of the
> > problem were solved).
> > >> > >>>>>>>
> > >> > >>>>>>> I've pushed to graphics repo the StretchyGrid, which is
> > >> > >>>>>>> about
> > >> 300k
> > >> > >>>>>>> line nodes (the actual amount is variable, see the javadoc
> > >> > >>>>>>> comments). At 300k nodes the scene graph overhead is
> > >> > >>>>>>> negligible
> > >> on
> > >> > >>>>>>> the FX side, dirty opts
> > >> > >>>>>> is
> > >> > >>>>>>> taking a long time to run, and painting is really slow.
> > >> > >>>>>>>
> > >> > >>>>>>> PULSE: 347 [122ms:222ms]
> > >> > >>>>>>> T12 (8 +0ms): CSS Pass
> > >> > >>>>>>> T12 (8 +0ms): Layout Pass
> > >> > >>>>>>> T12 (47 +53ms): Waiting for previous rendering
> > >> > >>>>>>> T12 (100 +1ms): Copy state to render graph
> > >> > >>>>>>> T10 (101 +16ms): Dirty Opts Computed
> > >> > >>>>>>> T10 (117 +105ms): Painted
> > >> > >>>>>>> Counters:
> > >> > >>>>>>> Nodes rendered: 306565
> > >> > >>>>>>> Nodes visited during render: 306565
> > >> > >>>>>>>
> > >> > >>>>>>> If I were doing this by hand in open GL, I think the
> > >> > >>>>>>> drawing
> > >> would
> > >> > >>>>>>> be essentially free, if I used LINES with GL anti-aliasing,
> > >> > >>>>>>> I
> > >> could
> > >> > >>>>
> > >> > >>>>>>> send 'em all down to the card in a single shot (and if I
> > >> > >>>>>>> had a modern GL I could
> > >> > >>>>>> do
> > >> > >>>>>>> LINES + FXAA or one of the other per-pixel AA algorithms
> > >> available
> > >> > >>>>>>> and it would turn out pretty nice). Because our shapes
> > >> > >>>>>>> don't implement the
> > >> > >>>>>> non-AA
> > >> > >>>>>>> path, and our AA involves software rasterization and
> > >> > >>>>>>> uploading
> > >> of
> > >> > >>>>>> pixels, I
> > >> > >>>>>>> expect that to be the main source of the 105ms time being
> > >> > >>>>>>> spent
> > >> > >>>> here.
> > >> > >>>>>>>
> > >> > >>>>>>> Also I noticed (by turning on prism.showdirty=true) that
> > >> > >>>>>>> the
> > >> entire
> > >> > >>>>
> > >> > >>>>>>> grid
> > >> > >>>>>> is
> > >> > >>>>>>> being painted every time, even though visually it looks
> > >> > >>>>>>> like
> > >> only a
> > >> > >>>>
> > >> > >>>>>>> small subset actually needs to be changed. But that's
> > >> > >>>>>>> really a
> > >> > >>>> minor
> > >> > >>>>>>> thing, as
> > >> > >>>>>> I
> > >> > >>>>>>> said, drawing this many lines should basically be free if I
> > >> > >>>>>>> configure "smooth" to false in the app. Except that right
> > >> > >>>>>>> now
> > >> it is
> > >> > >>>>
> > >> > >>>>>>> totally not implemented (in NGShape):
> > >> > >>>>>>>
> > >> > >>>>>>> public void setAntialiased(boolean aa) {
> > >> > >>>>>>> // We don't support aliased shapes at this time }
> > >> > >>>>>>>
> > >> > >>>>>>> The point of stretchy grid is not to say "wow look at this
> > >> amazing
> > >> > >>>> demo".
> > >> > >>>>>>> The point is to say "what happens if I put in 300K nodes.
> > >> > >>>>>>> Where
> > >> > >>>> does
> > >> > >>>>>>> the system start to fall over?".
> > >> > >>>>>>>
> > >> > >>>>>>> Richard=
> > >> > >>>>>>>
> > >> > >>>>>>>
> > >> > >>>>>>>
> > >> > >>>>>>>
> > >> > >>>>>
> > >> > >>>>>
> > >> > >>>>> --
> > >> > >>>>> Pedro Duque Vieira
> > >> > >>
> > >> > >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Sven Reimers
> > >
> > > * Senior Expert Software Architect
> > > * NetBeans Dream Team Member: http://dreamteam.netbeans.org
> > > * Community Leader NetBeans: http://community.java.net/netbeans
> > > Desktop Java:
> > > http://community.java.net/javadesktop
> > > * Duke's Choice Award Winner 2009
> > > * Blog: http://nbguru.blogspot.com
> > >
> > > * XING: https://www.xing.com/profile/Sven_Reimers8
> > > * LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/svenreimers
> > >
> > > Join the NetBeans Groups:
> > > * XING: http://www.xing.com/group-20148.82db20
> > > * NUGM: http://haug-server.dyndns.org/display/NUGM/Home
> > > * LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/groups?gid=1860468
> > > http://www.linkedin.com/groups?gid=107402
> > > http://www.linkedin.com/groups?gid=1684717
> > > * Oracle: https://mix.oracle.com/groups/18497
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Klaus Eckelt
> Brigittaplatz 23/7
> 1200 Wien
> Klaus.Eckelt at gmail.com
>
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