JavaFX Sightings (forked from Re: Can JavaFX do CAD?)

[John C. Turnbull]

+1

Such a site could be very useful.

-----Original Message-----
From: openjfx-dev-bounces at openjdk.java.net
[mailto:openjfx-dev-bounces at openjdk.java.net] On Behalf Of Daniel Zwolenski
Sent: Sunday, 28 July 2013 09:56
To: Pedro Duque Vieira
Cc: OpenJFX Mailing List
Subject: JavaFX Sightings (forked from Re: Can JavaFX do CAD?)

The idea of a JFX Sightings page (in the tradition of the Swing Sightings
page) has been raised before and I think is a good one. 

It deserves it's own page though, that technet section isn't up to it in my
opinion. 

Personally I think this would be great under the fxexperience site as it
partners nicely with the links of the week?



On 28/07/2013, at 4:17 AM, Pedro Duque Vieira <pedro.duquevieira at gmail.com>
wrote:

> I have an Swing/JavaFX app, the site is: http://modellus.co
> 
> How can I get it to be on that real world usecases section? Or does it 
> not have the necessary requirements to be in it?
> 
> Thanks, best regards,
> 
> @John: On the JavaFx community site they have a section with 
> references to
>> real world usecases.
>> http://www.oracle.com/technetwork/java/javafx/community/index.html
>> 
>> On Sat, Jul 27, 2013 at 1:40 AM, John C. Turnbull 
>> <ozemale at ozemail.com.au
>>> wrote:
>>> Like Daniel said, none of what we say is in any way a criticism of 
>>> the JavaFX development team who, in my view and that of the entire 
>>> community, are doing an awesome job.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> For mine, all the shortcomings of JavaFX (perceived or actual) can 
>>> be
>> blown
>>> away if I could just demonstrate what JavaFX is really capable of.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> We have Ensemble from Oracle and also Ensemble from JFXtras (whose 
>>> demo incidentally doesn't run since Java 7 Update 21).  With Oracle 
>>> Ensemble
>> we
>>> can see that JavaFX has quite a nice set of basic controls and that 
>>> it at least supports very simple animations.  With JFXtras Ensemble 
>>> we can see that very nice controls are possible but unfortunately 
>>> many of these are
>> of
>>> a rather "whimsical" nature and not the kind of control you would 
>>> use in everyday business apps.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> What else is there?
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Of course we have rock stars like Gerrit Grunwald who frequently 
>>> post awesome controls and code snippets but we really need something 
>>> that
>> brings
>>> it altogether in a kick-arse showcase.  Preferably a whole suite of
>> killer
>>> apps that highlights everything JavaFX is capable of.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Yes, that would require a lot of effort but IMHO it is absolutely 
>>> worth
>> it.
>>> Without it, people like me really struggle to sell JavaFX or even 
>>> get a handle on its true potential.  I can promise people that more 
>>> advanced things are "possible" but given that they write the 
>>> cheques, they need to see it for themselves.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> And how about a website of JavaFX reference sites?  There must be 
>>> big companies out there using it right?
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> In the end it doesn't matter if I personally see enormous potential 
>>> for JavaFX if I cannot convince others to see what I see.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> -jct
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> From: Daniel Zwolenski [mailto:zonski at gmail.com]
>>> Sent: Saturday, 27 July 2013 09:12
>>> To: John C. Turnbull
>>> Cc: Richard Bair; openjfx-dev at openjdk.java.net
>>> Subject: Re: Can JavaFX do CAD?
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> +1
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> I've failed to convince multiple clients that they should use JFX 
>>> because of
>>> 
>>> 
>>> a) lack of examples of what it can really do, and how to make it do 
>>> that (e.g. in enterprise space we have
>>> http://static.springsource.org/docs/petclinic.html)
>>> 
>>> b) lack of any big or notable players out there actually using it, 
>>> or at least publicly saying they are using it
>>> 
>>> c) the deployment hassles vs the ease of html app deployment and the 
>>> true cross-platform-ness of html
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> After actually getting one client to trust me on it and use it on a 
>>> real, commercial app (startup), I hit problems with performance 
>>> (broad interpretation of the term, not 'framerate'), crippling 
>>> deployment and
>> auto
>>> updating issues, missing basic features (e.g. maximise button, 
>>> coming in
>>> 2014 I believe?), unpredictability of CSS styling, and a lack of 
>>> best practices for things like how to do CAD-like diagrams (not so 
>>> much render performance but zooming, panning, mouse input, layering,
dragging, etc).
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Like John, I've been guilty of letting my frustration show in these
>> forums.
>>> Like John, it's because I want so badly for JavaFX to be the 
>>> platform I develop on, it has the potential to be awesome, but 
>>> things (that seem obvious and small to me) completely stop it from 
>>> being usable in a real world situation for me.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> It's not that we think the JFX team aren't slogging their guts out,
>> clearly
>>> you are. It's just that in some key areas, there are small-ish 
>>> blocks
>> that
>>> stop the whole rocket from launching. To then see a whole lot of 
>>> effort
>> be
>>> poured into things like binary CSS/FXML compilation, Pi platform 
>>> support (that's more important than iOS/Android, really?), web 
>>> deployment
>> patches,
>>> or even 3D (as cool as that is), just knocks me about. Obviously 
>>> your priorities are coming from somewhere different to ours, but the 
>>> way you prioritise is unfathomable to me and that definitely adds to 
>>> the frustration.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> At this stage, I am not suggesting my clients use JFX (I actively 
>>> discourage them from it, in their interest). Mobile is the area that 
>>> has the
>> potential
>>> to bring JFX back into usable for me as it can compete easier with 
>>> the current technologies (which are all crap). Maybe if that ends up 
>>> working
>> (a
>>> long, long road to go on that and very much an 'if') then it will 
>>> seep
>> back
>>> into the desktop for me, but at a minimum the desktop deployment 
>>> options will need to be improved before that's even a possibility.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> I've come to accept that I am not in the primary target audience for 
>>> JavaFX, maybe a secondary target. I don't understand who the primary 
>>> target is though, and knowing/accepting doesn't make it any less 
>>> frustrating. I
>> keep
>>> involved in the hope that I might get a usable platform somewhere 
>>> along
>> the
>>> way but it's more of a hope than a belief.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> So nothing really new above, but just adding my voice to John's. 
>>> JavaFX
>> is
>>> definitely not production ready for me, my clients and the types of 
>>> apps
>> I
>>> build (e.g. consumer facing online systems, enterprise/backoffice
>> systems,
>>> form/data systems, diagramming systems). One day I hope it will be, 
>>> but it's moving extremely slowly or not at all in the areas that 
>>> would make it so for me. Meanwhile the competitors (primarily 
>>> JavaScript based solutions) are improving rapidly in the areas where 
>>> they have traditionally been weak.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Sat, Jul 27, 2013 at 8:30 AM, John C. Turnbull <
>> ozemale at ozemail.com.au
>>> <mailto:ozemale at ozemail.com.au> > wrote:
>>> 
>>> Hi Richard,
>>> 
>>> I have to stop posting late at night, that one came across as really
>> ANGRY!
>>> 
>>> It's not anger, it's passion... and frustration.
>>> 
>>> I am frustrated because I spend much of my day trying to convince my 
>>> employer that we should be using JavaFX.  They ask me questions like:
>>> 
>>> "What happens if Oracle abandons JavaFX just like Sun did with JMF,
>> Java3D,
>>> JOGL etc. ?"
>>> 
>>> I say:
>>> 
>>> "This is Oracle, not Sun."
>>> 
>>> They say:
>>> 
>>> "Can you show me what JavaFX can do? There must be examples out 
>>> there right?"
>>> 
>>> And I say:
>>> 
>>> "Sure, here's Ensemble."
>>> 
>>> They say:
>>> 
>>> "OK, so it has a nice set of basic controls and can do simple 
>>> animations but what about more complex things like Flash?"
>>> 
>>> ...hence the dancing cat reference.
>>> 
>>> It's not that my employer *needs* dancing cats, it's just that they 
>>> need
>> to
>>> see that there is more to JavaFX than red circle transitions.  I 
>>> can't
>> even
>>> prove to them that JavaFX is capable of dancing cats.  They don't 
>>> have
>> the
>>> resources to fund me to develop something more sophisticated but 
>>> they
>> tell
>>> me that if JavaFX truly was a "mature" technology (like I tell them) 
>>> then where are all the examples?
>>> 
>>> I am finding it difficult to convince them that JavaFX is production
>> ready
>>> and is not still in "experimental" mode because I am unable to
>> demonstrate
>>> its true capabilities or refer them to many examples of people (and 
>>> I
>> mean
>>> big companies) actually using it.
>>> 
>>> The main concerns of my employer and I think many companies in a 
>>> similar situation is that JavaFX won't survive long term and that it 
>>> is only
>> really
>>> suitable for form based applications.  Then of course there is the 
>>> whole
>>> "HTML5 runs on all platforms" argument but that's another story...
>>> 
>>> So this is why I think it's imperative that Oracle invests in 
>>> developing
>> a
>>> true showcase application for JavaFX.  Something that non-technical
>> people
>>> (like managers who make decisions about where the money goes) can 
>>> look at it and go "wow!".
>>> 
>>> I am just not getting my managers to go "wow" at what I can show 
>>> them
>> with
>>> JavaFX at the moment.
>>> 
>>> Every comment or apparent criticism I post about JavaFX is from the 
>>> perspective that I am trying to deal with real-world problems and 
>>> people who require proof (such as demos, reference sites etc.) and 
>>> not because I myself think JavaFX is not up to scratch.
>>> 
>>> It's quite the opposite actually.
>>> 
>>> I am a very, very strong believer and supporter of JavaFX and have 
>>> many reasons both personal and professional as to why I want it to 
>>> be a
>> massive
>>> success.  As I have said before, there are plenty of people who 
>>> praise JavaFX and tend to avoid the very real issues that are 
>>> restricting its adoption.  I just think we have to face these issues 
>>> head on if we are to compete in what is a very cut-throat industry.
>>> 
>>> -jct
>>> 
>>> 
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Richard Bair [mailto:richard.bair at oracle.com 
>>> <mailto:richard.bair at oracle.com> ]
>>> Sent: Saturday, 27 July 2013 01:40
>>> To: John C. Turnbull
>>> Cc: 'Daniel Zwolenski'; openjfx-dev at openjdk.java.net 
>>> <mailto:openjfx-dev at openjdk.java.net>
>>> Subject: Re: Can JavaFX do CAD?
>>> 
>>>> For Flash, there are literally millions of examples of 
>>>> fancy/complex/impressive graphics and animations out there that can 
>>>> be really impressive at times.  I have not seen ONE such example in
>> JavaFX!
>>> 
>>> Point to one?
>>> 
>>> Have you seen any of the JavaOne examples? The movie wall or movies 
>>> on a stack of 3D cubes was pretty good. But I guess you're not 
>>> interested in
>> the
>>> 3D aspect? What is it you are looking for exactly? Different people 
>>> (on this
>>> list) have had different perceptions on both (a) what's important 
>>> and (b) what kind of graphics they're interested in. Most people 
>>> would deride the dancing cat as being totally irrelevant to the 
>>> types of applications they're trying to build (the basis for much of 
>>> flash animations is shape
>> morphing,
>>> you can find some code here https://gist.github.com/gontard/5029764).
>>> 
>>> On the other hand, JavaFX is not a replacement for OpenGL. Drawing 
>>> 25 million lines is just not something we can do right now, 
>>> especially in a resource constrained environment. I've already 
>>> commented on the memory overhead (which would continue to be an 
>>> issue even if the drawing part of the problem were solved).
>>> 
>>> I've pushed to graphics repo the StretchyGrid, which is about 300k 
>>> line nodes (the actual amount is variable, see the javadoc 
>>> comments). At 300k nodes the scene graph overhead is negligible on 
>>> the FX side, dirty opts
>> is
>>> taking a long time to run, and painting is really slow.
>>> 
>>> PULSE: 347 [122ms:222ms]
>>> T12 (8 +0ms): CSS Pass
>>> T12 (8 +0ms): Layout Pass
>>> T12 (47 +53ms): Waiting for previous rendering
>>> T12 (100 +1ms): Copy state to render graph
>>> T10 (101 +16ms): Dirty Opts Computed
>>> T10 (117 +105ms): Painted
>>> Counters:
>>>        Nodes rendered: 306565
>>>        Nodes visited during render: 306565
>>> 
>>> If I were doing this by hand in open GL, I think the drawing would 
>>> be essentially free, if I used LINES with GL anti-aliasing, I could 
>>> send 'em all down to the card in a single shot (and if I had a 
>>> modern GL I could
>> do
>>> LINES + FXAA or one of the other per-pixel AA algorithms available 
>>> and it would turn out pretty nice). Because our shapes don't 
>>> implement the
>> non-AA
>>> path, and our AA involves software rasterization and uploading of
>> pixels, I
>>> expect that to be the main source of the 105ms time being spent here.
>>> 
>>> Also I noticed (by turning on prism.showdirty=true) that the entire 
>>> grid
>> is
>>> being painted every time, even though visually it looks like only a 
>>> small subset actually needs to be changed. But that's really a minor 
>>> thing, as
>> I
>>> said, drawing this many lines should basically be free if I 
>>> configure "smooth" to false in the app. Except that right now it is 
>>> totally not implemented (in NGShape):
>>> 
>>>    public void setAntialiased(boolean aa) {
>>>        // We don't support aliased shapes at this time
>>>    }
>>> 
>>> The point of stretchy grid is not to say "wow look at this amazing
demo".
>>> The point is to say "what happens if I put in 300K nodes. Where does 
>>> the system start to fall over?".
>>> 
>>> Richard=
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
> 
> 
> --
> Pedro Duque Vieira