Moving on (forked from Re: JavaOne roundup?)

[Felix Bembrick]

Yes, perhaps Oracle have not yet grasped the degree of importance of
actively engaging the community in a project that is "supposed" to be
community-based.

I suspect the limited resources of the JavaFX team are working flat-out
just to get new versions released and to meet the targets for JFX8 and that
"engaging the community" is suffering as a result.

Who knows, maybe some of that hard work is on porting JavaFX to modern
platforms???


On 30 September 2013 19:53, Tobias Bley <tobi at ultramixer.com> wrote:

> I absolutely agree that it’s very important to release a stable solution.
> BUT: There is a ARM based version for embedded space available as beta
> version since a long time… so it’s important to TALK to the community.
> Otherwise Java and JavaFX == Oracle. No need to open source it.
>
>
> Am 30.09.2013 um 11:48 schrieb Felix Bembrick <felix.bembrick at gmail.com>:
>
> I urge everyone *not* to walk away from JavaFX, at least not yet.
>
> As has been pointed out, there were several sessions scheduled for J1
> relating to JavaFX on mobiles and tablets that were only cancelled at the
> very last minute.  I see this as a definite positive.  To me that says that
> they truly believed they would be able to have something for those sessions
> but for whatever reason were not able to get across the finish line.  I
> would have been far more worried if they had never announced such sessions
> because then we would know for certain that they do not have any concrete
> plans in this area.
>
> I am optimistic that a *big* announcement is just around the corner.  Of
> course J1 would have been the perfect place for such an announcement but
> can you imagine the damage to brand Java/JavaFX had they released a
> half-baked, bug-ridden, slow-as-a-dog implementation of JavaFX on iOS or
> Android?  Many developers would have walked away from client-side Java
> forever and the press would have gone into meltdown ridiculing the
> technology.
>
> If Oracle really does have something in the pipeline for iOS/Android then
> they are *absolutely right* to get it *perfect* before they let it loose
> on the public.
>
> Having said this though and as starry-eyed as I am, even I cannot wait
> forever....
>
>
> On 30 September 2013 19:14, Tobias Bley <tobi at ultramixer.com> wrote:
>
>> I absolutely agree Daniel. I opened a very important bug reporting
>> concerning JFX performance on iPhone which currently prevents using JavaFX
>> (and RoboVM) to build apps for the iPhone (
>> https://javafx-jira.kenai.com/browse/RT-31453) this bug report is open
>> since 3(!) month!  How shall the community build things for iOS if a very
>> base feature (bug) is not fixed by Oracles core team??? It’s a very bad
>> sign for engaged developers outside Oracle!
>>
>> So maybe we should say good by to the legacy of SUN and use web
>> technologies like JQuery, ExtJS, … with real community power and without an
>> US company who sees only money and legal issues.
>>
>> Maybe Larry loves to spend millions of dollars to win a boat race and
>> develop experimental „iPads“ rather then spend their time and money to
>> develop a technology with could be the base for ALL products, on Desktop,
>> embedded space, mobile, watches, …
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Tobi
>>
>>
>>
>> Am 30.09.2013 um 10:39 schrieb Daniel Zwolenski <zonski at gmail.com>:
>>
>> The lack of information on iOS/Android is a major bummer, but this also
>> highlights a deeper problem here.
>>
>> We have a situation where Oracle won't talk to this community because the
>> topic is important, it's too big a game changer for them to comment on.
>> It's tied in with share prices, and market strategies.
>>
>> So won't that be the case for anything *important* going forward? We
>> "community" members are outsiders and very lowly ranked, well below "real"
>> customers and even below random punters from the media. There's not even a
>> way for us to rank bugs and get them attention (even if we provide fixes!).
>>
>>
>> What kind of community can this ever be if anything important can't be
>> discussed here before it's locked in, because it risks Oracle giving up a
>> commercial edge? Is this then a community only for discussing our favourite
>> method names for the API and pointing out that an enum constant is missing?
>>
>> I can't see any way that this forum provides any significant
>> contributions back to the platform - the occasional bug fix at best. JIRA
>> is fine for discussing bugs, method names and little things like that. Any
>> of the real community initiatives are run completely separate to this forum
>> because Oracle doesn't want anything to do with them, and all the
>> significant platform work takes place behind Oracle's closed doors and we
>> only hear about it after it's a done deal.
>>
>> From where I'm standing, the Oracle community concept is fundamentally
>> flawed, and the root cause is that Oracle just don't get how to interact
>> with a community. You want to use us but you're not very good at it, you're
>> not trying to improve (you don't think there's a problem) and ultimately
>> Oracle's culture won't let you do it properly anyway. The current approach
>> is a little like a car salesman trying to be your Facebook "friend".
>>
>> All the initiatives I got involved with through this forum have gone
>> nowhere - deployment (auto updating), the early Maven deployment work
>> (which Richard asked for), the tower defender game (which Richard asked
>> for), the jfx browser (which Richard asked for), even stuff as simple as
>> JIRA dashboards (which Richard again asked for).
>>
>> All these hit points where they needed Oracle to do their part of it and
>> then just stalled and then died. This community could have fostered a lot
>> of tools and efforts, and really propelled JFX into the bigger dev
>> community, but instead, for me, it has been a constant source of stress and
>> dissatisfaction, a hinderance and a hurdle. All pain, no gain.
>>
>> The only initiatives I actually made work were the JavaFX Maven plugin
>> and the RoboVM Maven plugin. With both of these I made a conscious decision
>> to not involve this forum or Oracle. I decided to cludge around platform
>> shortcomings, rather than work with Oracle to fix it (5 minute fixes would
>> have saved me days of work).
>>
>> That was the only way I could make these initiatives succeed since this
>> forum is a hinderance to contributing. It gives a false sense that Oracle
>> is listening and actively supporting the community. To anyone out there
>> wanting to do something in JFX tool space, I'd say start by leaving this
>> forum and working out what you can do without any access to the Oracle
>> guys, even if you make your own code contributions to the platform. Assume
>> you're an outsider - the cavalry is not coming, you're on your own.
>>
>> Given all that I'm walking away from this forum. I was waiting to hear
>> about the iOS/Android stuff first, but really even if they did announce
>> anything, it would be a long shot at best (untested, low resources, lack of
>> solid direction and most likely tied in with some Oracle ADF garbage or
>> similar). The uncertainty created by Oracle's mixed messages also killed
>> all momentum on the community RoboVM work. Meanwhile web based stuff is
>> getting stronger, cleaner and better tool support at an exponential rate,
>> including in the mobile space.
>>
>> If JavaFX one day actually provides a usable platform for non-Oracle
>> entrenched customers, and the developer world notices, I'll certainly
>> consider it. I reckon I'll hear about that through the usual tech media
>> channels first, rather than through here though. As Oracle themselves
>> pointed out at the 2012 JavaOne session the smart money is on web based
>> stuff (check out backbone.js and marionette.js for a desktop-like coding
>> experience, not bad and will get better faster than JFX improves).
>>
>> On that note, the JavaFX Maven plugin is about to go into decay mode. It
>> needs to be updated to work on Maven 3.1 (some libraries have changed from
>> 3.0) and there are a number of bugs and feature requests building up that
>> I've been ignoring. I have no incentive to do any of this so it will
>> unfortunately just rot. If anyone wants to pick it up, let me know (you
>> need a few free hours a week just to maintain it). I'm picking up stumps
>> and moving on.
>>
>> I also have the access rights for the openjfx Maven repo on Sonatype
>> (needed to deploy to Maven central). I imagine Sonatype would grant this
>> access to others if you apply and make a case for it, but if anyone wants
>> to do this let me know and I can notify sonatype to give you access and
>> save you some hassles.
>>
>> I think Niklas has the RoboVM Maven Plugin sorted now and can do
>> enhancements on that but I'm sure if anyone wanted to help him out he
>> wouldn't say no.
>>
>> Cheers,
>>  Dan
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Sep 30, 2013 at 5:04 PM, Tobias Bley <tobi at ultramixer.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I don’t understand why „all“ this people who needs JavaFX on iOS/Android
>>> does not tell it Oracles management. And I don’t understand why all this
>>> people use their time to develop all this demos and Rasp.PI stuff. Who
>>> needs it? Why don’t we develop base stuff like iOS skins, Android skins,
>>> iOS/Android widgets, RoboVM for Android, RoboVM using OpenJDK, … I really
>>> love useful stuff like the „JavaFX maven plugin“ or the „AquaFX“ project.
>>> That kind of development we need!
>>>
>>> Best,
>>> Tobi
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Am 30.09.2013 um 08:50 schrieb Felix Bembrick <felix.bembrick at gmail.com
>>> >:
>>>
>>> > No, you are *not* the only one. We *all* need it.  In fact, without it
>>>  happening soon, JavaFX is already dead.
>>> >
>>> > But let's not give up yet.  Perhaps it's closer than we know. I am a
>>> glass half full kinda guy :-)
>>> >
>>> >> On 30 Sep 2013, at 16:40, Tobias Bley <tobi at ultramixer.com> wrote:
>>> >>
>>> >> I suppose „legal reasons“….
>>> >>
>>> >> For me it’s very frustrating to see every year the same procedure:
>>> JavaFX-iOS/Android related tracks were canceled - „nerd“ stuff like
>>> Rasp.PI, DukePad & Co were announced. Maybe I’m really the only one who
>>> needs JavaFX on mobile to use JavaFX on desktop as well… :(
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>> Am 29.09.2013 um 18:13 schrieb Jeff Martin <jeff at reportmill.com>:
>>> >>>
>>> >>> It seems the JFX on iOS/Android were cancelled at the last moment. I
>>> tried to keep expectations low this year, but I admit I harbored secret
>>> hopes based on those sessions (a few embarrassingly optimistic
>>> conversations with clients notwithstanding).
>>> >>>
>>> >>> Last week Tomas offered this:
>>> >>>
>>> >>>> about cancelled sessions please contact Mr. JavaOne
>>> stephen.chin at oracle.com I believe he will give satisfactory answer.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> I'd like to take him up on that satisfactory offer. Also, can we run
>>> the name "DukePad" by marketing again?
>>> >>>
>>> >>> :-)
>>> >>>
>>> >>> jeff
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>>> On Sep 29, 2013, at 12:12 AM, Daniel Zwolenski <zonski at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> The sessions aren't up yet from the looks of it. It would be great
>>> to get an overall roundup of any new announcements or directions in any
>>> case. Given this is the developer community network it would make sense in
>>> my mind to highlight stuff like that in here.
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> For me, I'd love it if someone could quickly sum up any
>>> announcements or sessions made about JavaFX for iOS, Android or in the
>>> deployment space?
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> What happened at the sessions Tobi highlighted before (
>>> http://blog.software4java.com/?p=97), did anyone go to these and able
>>> to give us some info?
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>>> On 27/09/2013, at 7:07 AM, Richard Bair <richard.bair at oracle.com>
>>> wrote:
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>> The sessions, I think, are all being uploaded to Parley's (
>>> http://www.parleys.com), although I don't see any content there yet
>>> (not sure how long it will take them to post-process, but usually it is
>>> pretty fast).
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>> Richard
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>>> On Sep 26, 2013, at 2:00 PM, Daniel Zwolenski <zonski at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>> Has anyone done or seen any good roundups (text or video) of the
>>> JavaOne sessions relating to javafx?
>>> >>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>