Moving on (forked from Re: JavaOne roundup?)

Mon Sep 30 03:13:00 PDT 2013

Hey, I am trying to hose-down the political talk!  I encourage everyone to
take a deep breath and focus on the many positives of the awesome
technology that is JavaFX :-)

On 30 September 2013 20:03, Hervé Girod <herve.girod at gmail.com> wrote:

> It's not the place to talk politics here. If you want to channel your
> frustration, do it in your blog if you have one.
>
> Hervé
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> > On 30 sept. 2013, at 11:14, Tobias Bley <tobi at ultramixer.com> wrote:
> >
> > I absolutely agree Daniel. I opened a very important bug reporting
> concerning JFX performance on iPhone which currently prevents using JavaFX
> (and RoboVM) to build apps for the iPhone (
> https://javafx-jira.kenai.com/browse/RT-31453) this bug report is open
> since 3(!) month!  How shall the community build things for iOS if a very
> base feature (bug) is not fixed by Oracles core team??? It’s a very bad
> sign for engaged developers outside Oracle!
> >
> > So maybe we should say good by to the legacy of SUN and use web
> technologies like JQuery, ExtJS, … with real community power and without an
> US company who sees only money and legal issues.
> >
> > Maybe Larry loves to spend millions of dollars to win a boat race and
> develop experimental „iPads“ rather then spend their time and money to
> develop a technology with could be the base for ALL products, on Desktop,
> embedded space, mobile, watches, …
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Tobi
> >
> >
> >
> >> Am 30.09.2013 um 10:39 schrieb Daniel Zwolenski <zonski at gmail.com>:
> >>
> >> The lack of information on iOS/Android is a major bummer, but this also
> highlights a deeper problem here.
> >>
> >> We have a situation where Oracle won't talk to this community because
> the topic is important, it's too big a game changer for them to comment on.
> It's tied in with share prices, and market strategies.
> >>
> >> So won't that be the case for anything *important* going forward? We
> "community" members are outsiders and very lowly ranked, well below "real"
> customers and even below random punters from the media. There's not even a
> way for us to rank bugs and get them attention (even if we provide fixes!).
> >>
> >> What kind of community can this ever be if anything important can't be
> discussed here before it's locked in, because it risks Oracle giving up a
> commercial edge? Is this then a community only for discussing our favourite
> method names for the API and pointing out that an enum constant is missing?
> >>
> >> I can't see any way that this forum provides any significant
> contributions back to the platform - the occasional bug fix at best. JIRA
> is fine for discussing bugs, method names and little things like that. Any
> of the real community initiatives are run completely separate to this forum
> because Oracle doesn't want anything to do with them, and all the
> significant platform work takes place behind Oracle's closed doors and we
> only hear about it after it's a done deal.
> >>
> >> From where I'm standing, the Oracle community concept is fundamentally
> flawed, and the root cause is that Oracle just don't get how to interact
> with a community. You want to use us but you're not very good at it, you're
> not trying to improve (you don't think there's a problem) and ultimately
> Oracle's culture won't let you do it properly anyway. The current approach
> is a little like a car salesman trying to be your Facebook "friend".
> >>
> >> All the initiatives I got involved with through this forum have gone
> nowhere - deployment (auto updating), the early Maven deployment work
> (which Richard asked for), the tower defender game (which Richard asked
> for), the jfx browser (which Richard asked for), even stuff as simple as
> JIRA dashboards (which Richard again asked for).
> >>
> >> All these hit points where they needed Oracle to do their part of it
> and then just stalled and then died. This community could have fostered a
> lot of tools and efforts, and really propelled JFX into the bigger dev
> community, but instead, for me, it has been a constant source of stress and
> dissatisfaction, a hinderance and a hurdle. All pain, no gain.
> >>
> >> The only initiatives I actually made work were the JavaFX Maven plugin
> and the RoboVM Maven plugin. With both of these I made a conscious decision
> to not involve this forum or Oracle. I decided to cludge around platform
> shortcomings, rather than work with Oracle to fix it (5 minute fixes would
> have saved me days of work).
> >>
> >> That was the only way I could make these initiatives succeed since this
> forum is a hinderance to contributing. It gives a false sense that Oracle
> is listening and actively supporting the community. To anyone out there
> wanting to do something in JFX tool space, I'd say start by leaving this
> forum and working out what you can do without any access to the Oracle
> guys, even if you make your own code contributions to the platform. Assume
> you're an outsider - the cavalry is not coming, you're on your own.
> >>
> >> Given all that I'm walking away from this forum. I was waiting to hear
> about the iOS/Android stuff first, but really even if they did announce
> anything, it would be a long shot at best (untested, low resources, lack of
> solid direction and most likely tied in with some Oracle ADF garbage or
> similar). The uncertainty created by Oracle's mixed messages also killed
> all momentum on the community RoboVM work. Meanwhile web based stuff is
> getting stronger, cleaner and better tool support at an exponential rate,
> including in the mobile space.
> >>
> >> If JavaFX one day actually provides a usable platform for non-Oracle
> entrenched customers, and the developer world notices, I'll certainly
> consider it. I reckon I'll hear about that through the usual tech media
> channels first, rather than through here though. As Oracle themselves
> pointed out at the 2012 JavaOne session the smart money is on web based
> stuff (check out backbone.js and marionette.js for a desktop-like coding
> experience, not bad and will get better faster than JFX improves).
> >>
> >> On that note, the JavaFX Maven plugin is about to go into decay mode.
> It needs to be updated to work on Maven 3.1 (some libraries have changed
> from 3.0) and there are a number of bugs and feature requests building up
> that I've been ignoring. I have no incentive to do any of this so it will
> unfortunately just rot. If anyone wants to pick it up, let me know (you
> need a few free hours a week just to maintain it). I'm picking up stumps
> and moving on.
> >>
> >> I also have the access rights for the openjfx Maven repo on Sonatype
> (needed to deploy to Maven central). I imagine Sonatype would grant this
> access to others if you apply and make a case for it, but if anyone wants
> to do this let me know and I can notify sonatype to give you access and
> save you some hassles.
> >>
> >> I think Niklas has the RoboVM Maven Plugin sorted now and can do
> enhancements on that but I'm sure if anyone wanted to help him out he
> wouldn't say no.
> >>
> >> Cheers,
> >> Dan
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On Mon, Sep 30, 2013 at 5:04 PM, Tobias Bley <tobi at ultramixer.com>
> wrote:
> >> I don’t understand why „all“ this people who needs JavaFX on
> iOS/Android does not tell it Oracles management. And I don’t understand why
> all this people use their time to develop all this demos and Rasp.PI stuff.
> Who needs it? Why don’t we develop base stuff like iOS skins, Android
> skins, iOS/Android widgets, RoboVM for Android, RoboVM using OpenJDK, … I
> really love useful stuff like the „JavaFX maven plugin“ or the „AquaFX“
> project. That kind of development we need!
> >>
> >> Best,
> >> Tobi
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>> Am 30.09.2013 um 08:50 schrieb Felix Bembrick <
> felix.bembrick at gmail.com>:
> >>>
> >>> No, you are *not* the only one. We *all* need it.  In fact, without it
>  happening soon, JavaFX is already dead.
> >>>
> >>> But let's not give up yet.  Perhaps it's closer than we know. I am a
> glass half full kinda guy :-)
> >>>
> >>>> On 30 Sep 2013, at 16:40, Tobias Bley <tobi at ultramixer.com> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> I suppose „legal reasons“….
> >>>>
> >>>> For me it’s very frustrating to see every year the same procedure:
> JavaFX-iOS/Android related tracks were canceled - „nerd“ stuff like
> Rasp.PI, DukePad & Co were announced. Maybe I’m really the only one who
> needs JavaFX on mobile to use JavaFX on desktop as well… :(
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> Am 29.09.2013 um 18:13 schrieb Jeff Martin <jeff at reportmill.com>:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> It seems the JFX on iOS/Android were cancelled at the last moment. I
> tried to keep expectations low this year, but I admit I harbored secret
> hopes based on those sessions (a few embarrassingly optimistic
> conversations with clients notwithstanding).
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Last week Tomas offered this:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> about cancelled sessions please contact Mr. JavaOne
> stephen.chin at oracle.com I believe he will give satisfactory answer.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I'd like to take him up on that satisfactory offer. Also, can we run
> the name "DukePad" by marketing again?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> :-)
> >>>>>
> >>>>> jeff
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> On Sep 29, 2013, at 12:12 AM, Daniel Zwolenski <zonski at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> The sessions aren't up yet from the looks of it. It would be great
> to get an overall roundup of any new announcements or directions in any
> case. Given this is the developer community network it would make sense in
> my mind to highlight stuff like that in here.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> For me, I'd love it if someone could quickly sum up any
> announcements or sessions made about JavaFX for iOS, Android or in the
> deployment space?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> What happened at the sessions Tobi highlighted before (
> http://blog.software4java.com/?p=97), did anyone go to these and able to
> give us some info?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> On 27/09/2013, at 7:07 AM, Richard Bair <richard.bair at oracle.com>
> wrote:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> The sessions, I think, are all being uploaded to Parley's (
> http://www.parleys.com), although I don't see any content there yet (not
> sure how long it will take them to post-process, but usually it is pretty
> fast).
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Richard
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> On Sep 26, 2013, at 2:00 PM, Daniel Zwolenski <zonski at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Has anyone done or seen any good roundups (text or video) of the
> JavaOne sessions relating to javafx?
> >
>