Moving on to a "round house kick" (forked from Re: JavaOne roundup?)

Felix Bembrick felix.bembrick at gmail.com
Mon Sep 30 11:09:21 PDT 2013 

@Matthias, no, I am not kidding.  Put your faith in the technology, not the politics.

> On 30 Sep 2013, at 22:03, Matthias Hänel <haenel at ultramixer.com> wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> 
> @Felix: you are kidding are you? We cannot take another breath without choking on it. Sure there
> are many positive things about JavaFX but in the real world I can't be happy over and over again about 
> the same things. A university can just devlop until a certain point, but we have a running bussiness
> where we need to decide the future of the underlaying technology.
> 
> This is my very first post to this mailing list. My collegue tobi is an active member of this community.
> He is head of the java devlopement department in our company and I am the counterpart by managing the 
> backend native codes and the interfacing to JNI/Java for the upper layers. 
> Since Javafx could be a game changer for our company we have had internal workshops for the developers 
> to get a common sense about the furture of development directions. This summer we focused our development
> on JavaFX for further products. This meant reworking all UI-stuff, cleaning APIs and fixing JNI for java8.
> 
> Tobi was soo excited to see the new technologies and his presentation to our fellow developers has been
> more than ethusiastic. It sounded almost like the old dream "code-once-run-anywhere" comes true. The closer 
> JavaOne got and the more session of interest for us has been canceled, the more we got fed up over here.
> As a result non of the session that had been a sort of interest for us had been held. Just to summarize
> our feeling about that, we are taking this really personally. There is investment of money and time on 
> one side and on the other side it is personal investment into a future technology.
> 
> 
> I would like to give you an overview of the things that happend and how they appear over here.
> 
> What did we heard over here from JavaOne?
> 
> 1. JavaFX is still in development
> 2. Dukepad is released
> 3. Oracle wong a sailing cup
> (4. Javafx runs in a browser)
> 
> 
> I'll start at the bottom:
> 
> (4. When Javafx runs in a browser, why do I need it? I could use JavaScript and web technologies as well.
> This is quite a failure of time investment. Sure write-once-run-anywhere applies but all tough real world 
> applications are not buildable since there is no native interfacing and won't be cross platform in the near future.)
> 
> 3. Larry Ellison spent 200 million dollar to win a sailing cup. 
> I don't want to image what Oracle could have been done to revolutionize the world. I don't speak only about JavaFX,
> there is a lot to be done with the right power. But doesn't lead to much here.
> 
> 2. Wow, there is a JavaFX enabled Dukepad. Beeing a soldering nerd myself, hacking firmware and much cool stuff
> in my spare time it really kicked me in the first place. Then I grounded when I have seen that it was a childish puzzle
> with lego blocks. The longer I think about that, the longer I am getting angry to see a 100 men powered development 
> team to build a demo on a demo board for a hand full nerds. Well that would be ok, if Oracle said that this is a demo
> on a prototyping board and the important platforms will follow soon. No word about iOS, Android, Windows8. 
> Do you really believe that there are many people to build a Tablet like this? I am really sure non of the major 
> hardware manufacturer will build a tablet on top of this platform soon since Android is also free to us and is 
> much more attractive to the end-user. The only thing that I can image is that Oracle comes up with their own
> iPad-Killer in the near future (don't wait too long) otherwise this decision make no sense to me.
> 
> 1. JavaFX is in active development is the only great news for me. As of today it looks like a major development for
> years that is not released for actual use. For me it is currently just a very big shiny demo. 
> 
> short history summarize:
> ------------------------
> 4 years ago when javafx1 hit's the world, desktop use was okay. JavaFX1 couldn't really convince due to an strange way
> of design. It is okay to make an mistake and to learn from it, so JavaFX2 was create. The software design is outstanding
> and the potential is not even comparable from my point of view. Well, it was already time to look at the other platforms.
> 2012 it was announced (but canceled) to run on iOS/Android and now 2013 it was announced again (but canceled).
> From our current point of view it looks like we just have to use the already developed parts on desktop and for mobile 
> we will have to start a complete new development branch. This will work for a short time but in the long term we'll
> probably step back from JavaFX and even Java and develop our own abstraction layer. This is sad and costs a lot of time
> that we would need to build our real products.
> 
> 
> To make it clear. Everytime I read arm-build I think there is further development in the right direction, but wrong
> it's still the same linux-arm-build. We don't need an arm build for javafx. We need an iOS-build, an Android-build 
> and a Windows-build for the jre and javafx. Don't get me wrong you can prototype where ever you want even on Pi, but 
> don't forget to deploy to a platform of importance.
> 
> 
> 
> One more thing:
> ---------------
> To be honest ADF is kind of a myth to me. I see some use cases for a technology like this but not many. It's always
> the same lame banking software.
> Okay, ADF is a really easy to use in business software (banking,insurance and so on) and very small and easy projects on the other side. 
> If a customer has a little more demand on new technologies you'll be lost with ADF, then comes JavaFX in the game. 
> Porting from ADF to JavaFX should be that hard, but you cannot deploy it on the same platforms like ADF. There is a gap 
> in the portfolio from my point of view.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> these are my 2 cents 
> Matthias
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>> Am 30.09.2013 um 12:13 schrieb Felix Bembrick <felix.bembrick at gmail.com>:
>> 
>> Hey, I am trying to hose-down the political talk!  I encourage everyone to
>> take a deep breath and focus on the many positives of the awesome
>> technology that is JavaFX :-)
>> 
>> 
>>> On 30 September 2013 20:03, Hervé Girod <herve.girod at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>> It's not the place to talk politics here. If you want to channel your
>>> frustration, do it in your blog if you have one.
>>> 
>>> Hervé
>>> 
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>> 
>>>> On 30 sept. 2013, at 11:14, Tobias Bley <tobi at ultramixer.com> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> I absolutely agree Daniel. I opened a very important bug reporting
>>> concerning JFX performance on iPhone which currently prevents using JavaFX
>>> (and RoboVM) to build apps for the iPhone (
>>> https://javafx-jira.kenai.com/browse/RT-31453) this bug report is open
>>> since 3(!) month!  How shall the community build things for iOS if a very
>>> base feature (bug) is not fixed by Oracles core team??? It’s a very bad
>>> sign for engaged developers outside Oracle!
>>>> 
>>>> So maybe we should say good by to the legacy of SUN and use web
>>> technologies like JQuery, ExtJS, … with real community power and without an
>>> US company who sees only money and legal issues.
>>>> 
>>>> Maybe Larry loves to spend millions of dollars to win a boat race and
>>> develop experimental „iPads“ rather then spend their time and money to
>>> develop a technology with could be the base for ALL products, on Desktop,
>>> embedded space, mobile, watches, …
>>>> 
>>>> Cheers,
>>>> Tobi
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>> Am 30.09.2013 um 10:39 schrieb Daniel Zwolenski <zonski at gmail.com>:
>>>>> 
>>>>> The lack of information on iOS/Android is a major bummer, but this also
>>> highlights a deeper problem here.
>>>>> 
>>>>> We have a situation where Oracle won't talk to this community because
>>> the topic is important, it's too big a game changer for them to comment on.
>>> It's tied in with share prices, and market strategies.
>>>>> 
>>>>> So won't that be the case for anything *important* going forward? We
>>> "community" members are outsiders and very lowly ranked, well below "real"
>>> customers and even below random punters from the media. There's not even a
>>> way for us to rank bugs and get them attention (even if we provide fixes!).
>>>>> 
>>>>> What kind of community can this ever be if anything important can't be
>>> discussed here before it's locked in, because it risks Oracle giving up a
>>> commercial edge? Is this then a community only for discussing our favourite
>>> method names for the API and pointing out that an enum constant is missing?
>>>>> 
>>>>> I can't see any way that this forum provides any significant
>>> contributions back to the platform - the occasional bug fix at best. JIRA
>>> is fine for discussing bugs, method names and little things like that. Any
>>> of the real community initiatives are run completely separate to this forum
>>> because Oracle doesn't want anything to do with them, and all the
>>> significant platform work takes place behind Oracle's closed doors and we
>>> only hear about it after it's a done deal.
>>>>> 
>>>>> From where I'm standing, the Oracle community concept is fundamentally
>>> flawed, and the root cause is that Oracle just don't get how to interact
>>> with a community. You want to use us but you're not very good at it, you're
>>> not trying to improve (you don't think there's a problem) and ultimately
>>> Oracle's culture won't let you do it properly anyway. The current approach
>>> is a little like a car salesman trying to be your Facebook "friend".
>>>>> 
>>>>> All the initiatives I got involved with through this forum have gone
>>> nowhere - deployment (auto updating), the early Maven deployment work
>>> (which Richard asked for), the tower defender game (which Richard asked
>>> for), the jfx browser (which Richard asked for), even stuff as simple as
>>> JIRA dashboards (which Richard again asked for).
>>>>> 
>>>>> All these hit points where they needed Oracle to do their part of it
>>> and then just stalled and then died. This community could have fostered a
>>> lot of tools and efforts, and really propelled JFX into the bigger dev
>>> community, but instead, for me, it has been a constant source of stress and
>>> dissatisfaction, a hinderance and a hurdle. All pain, no gain.
>>>>> 
>>>>> The only initiatives I actually made work were the JavaFX Maven plugin
>>> and the RoboVM Maven plugin. With both of these I made a conscious decision
>>> to not involve this forum or Oracle. I decided to cludge around platform
>>> shortcomings, rather than work with Oracle to fix it (5 minute fixes would
>>> have saved me days of work).
>>>>> 
>>>>> That was the only way I could make these initiatives succeed since this
>>> forum is a hinderance to contributing. It gives a false sense that Oracle
>>> is listening and actively supporting the community. To anyone out there
>>> wanting to do something in JFX tool space, I'd say start by leaving this
>>> forum and working out what you can do without any access to the Oracle
>>> guys, even if you make your own code contributions to the platform. Assume
>>> you're an outsider - the cavalry is not coming, you're on your own.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Given all that I'm walking away from this forum. I was waiting to hear
>>> about the iOS/Android stuff first, but really even if they did announce
>>> anything, it would be a long shot at best (untested, low resources, lack of
>>> solid direction and most likely tied in with some Oracle ADF garbage or
>>> similar). The uncertainty created by Oracle's mixed messages also killed
>>> all momentum on the community RoboVM work. Meanwhile web based stuff is
>>> getting stronger, cleaner and better tool support at an exponential rate,
>>> including in the mobile space.
>>>>> 
>>>>> If JavaFX one day actually provides a usable platform for non-Oracle
>>> entrenched customers, and the developer world notices, I'll certainly
>>> consider it. I reckon I'll hear about that through the usual tech media
>>> channels first, rather than through here though. As Oracle themselves
>>> pointed out at the 2012 JavaOne session the smart money is on web based
>>> stuff (check out backbone.js and marionette.js for a desktop-like coding
>>> experience, not bad and will get better faster than JFX improves).
>>>>> 
>>>>> On that note, the JavaFX Maven plugin is about to go into decay mode.
>>> It needs to be updated to work on Maven 3.1 (some libraries have changed
>>> from 3.0) and there are a number of bugs and feature requests building up
>>> that I've been ignoring. I have no incentive to do any of this so it will
>>> unfortunately just rot. If anyone wants to pick it up, let me know (you
>>> need a few free hours a week just to maintain it). I'm picking up stumps
>>> and moving on.
>>>>> 
>>>>> I also have the access rights for the openjfx Maven repo on Sonatype
>>> (needed to deploy to Maven central). I imagine Sonatype would grant this
>>> access to others if you apply and make a case for it, but if anyone wants
>>> to do this let me know and I can notify sonatype to give you access and
>>> save you some hassles.
>>>>> 
>>>>> I think Niklas has the RoboVM Maven Plugin sorted now and can do
>>> enhancements on that but I'm sure if anyone wanted to help him out he
>>> wouldn't say no.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>> Dan
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> On Mon, Sep 30, 2013 at 5:04 PM, Tobias Bley <tobi at ultramixer.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>>> I don’t understand why „all“ this people who needs JavaFX on
>>> iOS/Android does not tell it Oracles management. And I don’t understand why
>>> all this people use their time to develop all this demos and Rasp.PI stuff.
>>> Who needs it? Why don’t we develop base stuff like iOS skins, Android
>>> skins, iOS/Android widgets, RoboVM for Android, RoboVM using OpenJDK, … I
>>> really love useful stuff like the „JavaFX maven plugin“ or the „AquaFX“
>>> project. That kind of development we need!
>>>>> 
>>>>> Best,
>>>>> Tobi
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>>> Am 30.09.2013 um 08:50 schrieb Felix Bembrick <
>>> felix.bembrick at gmail.com>:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> No, you are *not* the only one. We *all* need it.  In fact, without it
>>> happening soon, JavaFX is already dead.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> But let's not give up yet.  Perhaps it's closer than we know. I am a
>>> glass half full kinda guy :-)
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On 30 Sep 2013, at 16:40, Tobias Bley <tobi at ultramixer.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> I suppose „legal reasons“….
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> For me it’s very frustrating to see every year the same procedure:
>>> JavaFX-iOS/Android related tracks were canceled - „nerd“ stuff like
>>> Rasp.PI, DukePad & Co were announced. Maybe I’m really the only one who
>>> needs JavaFX on mobile to use JavaFX on desktop as well… :(
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Am 29.09.2013 um 18:13 schrieb Jeff Martin <jeff at reportmill.com>:
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> It seems the JFX on iOS/Android were cancelled at the last moment. I
>>> tried to keep expectations low this year, but I admit I harbored secret
>>> hopes based on those sessions (a few embarrassingly optimistic
>>> conversations with clients notwithstanding).
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Last week Tomas offered this:
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> about cancelled sessions please contact Mr. JavaOne
>>> stephen.chin at oracle.com I believe he will give satisfactory answer.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> I'd like to take him up on that satisfactory offer. Also, can we run
>>> the name "DukePad" by marketing again?
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> :-)
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> jeff
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> On Sep 29, 2013, at 12:12 AM, Daniel Zwolenski <zonski at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> The sessions aren't up yet from the looks of it. It would be great
>>> to get an overall roundup of any new announcements or directions in any
>>> case. Given this is the developer community network it would make sense in
>>> my mind to highlight stuff like that in here.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> For me, I'd love it if someone could quickly sum up any
>>> announcements or sessions made about JavaFX for iOS, Android or in the
>>> deployment space?
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> What happened at the sessions Tobi highlighted before (
>>> http://blog.software4java.com/?p=97), did anyone go to these and able to
>>> give us some info?
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> On 27/09/2013, at 7:07 AM, Richard Bair <richard.bair at oracle.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> The sessions, I think, are all being uploaded to Parley's (
>>> http://www.parleys.com), although I don't see any content there yet (not
>>> sure how long it will take them to post-process, but usually it is pretty
>>> fast).
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Richard
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> On Sep 26, 2013, at 2:00 PM, Daniel Zwolenski <zonski at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> Has anyone done or seen any good roundups (text or video) of the
>>> JavaOne sessions relating to javafx?
>

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