Moving on to a "round house kick" (forked from Re: JavaOne roundup?)

Tobias Bley tobi at ultramixer.com
Mon Sep 30 13:17:13 PDT 2013 

The problem is the technology (no iOS/Android support) AND politics (Oracle doesn’t speak to the community)


Am 30.09.2013 um 20:09 schrieb Felix Bembrick <felix.bembrick at gmail.com>:

> @Matthias, no, I am not kidding.  Put your faith in the technology, not the politics.
> 
>> On 30 Sep 2013, at 22:03, Matthias Hänel <haenel at ultramixer.com> wrote:
>> 
>> Hi,
>> 
>> 
>> @Felix: you are kidding are you? We cannot take another breath without choking on it. Sure there
>> are many positive things about JavaFX but in the real world I can't be happy over and over again about 
>> the same things. A university can just devlop until a certain point, but we have a running bussiness
>> where we need to decide the future of the underlaying technology.
>> 
>> This is my very first post to this mailing list. My collegue tobi is an active member of this community.
>> He is head of the java devlopement department in our company and I am the counterpart by managing the 
>> backend native codes and the interfacing to JNI/Java for the upper layers. 
>> Since Javafx could be a game changer for our company we have had internal workshops for the developers 
>> to get a common sense about the furture of development directions. This summer we focused our development
>> on JavaFX for further products. This meant reworking all UI-stuff, cleaning APIs and fixing JNI for java8.
>> 
>> Tobi was soo excited to see the new technologies and his presentation to our fellow developers has been
>> more than ethusiastic. It sounded almost like the old dream "code-once-run-anywhere" comes true. The closer 
>> JavaOne got and the more session of interest for us has been canceled, the more we got fed up over here.
>> As a result non of the session that had been a sort of interest for us had been held. Just to summarize
>> our feeling about that, we are taking this really personally. There is investment of money and time on 
>> one side and on the other side it is personal investment into a future technology.
>> 
>> 
>> I would like to give you an overview of the things that happend and how they appear over here.
>> 
>> What did we heard over here from JavaOne?
>> 
>> 1. JavaFX is still in development
>> 2. Dukepad is released
>> 3. Oracle wong a sailing cup
>> (4. Javafx runs in a browser)
>> 
>> 
>> I'll start at the bottom:
>> 
>> (4. When Javafx runs in a browser, why do I need it? I could use JavaScript and web technologies as well.
>> This is quite a failure of time investment. Sure write-once-run-anywhere applies but all tough real world 
>> applications are not buildable since there is no native interfacing and won't be cross platform in the near future.)
>> 
>> 3. Larry Ellison spent 200 million dollar to win a sailing cup. 
>> I don't want to image what Oracle could have been done to revolutionize the world. I don't speak only about JavaFX,
>> there is a lot to be done with the right power. But doesn't lead to much here.
>> 
>> 2. Wow, there is a JavaFX enabled Dukepad. Beeing a soldering nerd myself, hacking firmware and much cool stuff
>> in my spare time it really kicked me in the first place. Then I grounded when I have seen that it was a childish puzzle
>> with lego blocks. The longer I think about that, the longer I am getting angry to see a 100 men powered development 
>> team to build a demo on a demo board for a hand full nerds. Well that would be ok, if Oracle said that this is a demo
>> on a prototyping board and the important platforms will follow soon. No word about iOS, Android, Windows8. 
>> Do you really believe that there are many people to build a Tablet like this? I am really sure non of the major 
>> hardware manufacturer will build a tablet on top of this platform soon since Android is also free to us and is 
>> much more attractive to the end-user. The only thing that I can image is that Oracle comes up with their own
>> iPad-Killer in the near future (don't wait too long) otherwise this decision make no sense to me.
>> 
>> 1. JavaFX is in active development is the only great news for me. As of today it looks like a major development for
>> years that is not released for actual use. For me it is currently just a very big shiny demo. 
>> 
>> short history summarize:
>> ------------------------
>> 4 years ago when javafx1 hit's the world, desktop use was okay. JavaFX1 couldn't really convince due to an strange way
>> of design. It is okay to make an mistake and to learn from it, so JavaFX2 was create. The software design is outstanding
>> and the potential is not even comparable from my point of view. Well, it was already time to look at the other platforms.
>> 2012 it was announced (but canceled) to run on iOS/Android and now 2013 it was announced again (but canceled).
>> From our current point of view it looks like we just have to use the already developed parts on desktop and for mobile 
>> we will have to start a complete new development branch. This will work for a short time but in the long term we'll
>> probably step back from JavaFX and even Java and develop our own abstraction layer. This is sad and costs a lot of time
>> that we would need to build our real products.
>> 
>> 
>> To make it clear. Everytime I read arm-build I think there is further development in the right direction, but wrong
>> it's still the same linux-arm-build. We don't need an arm build for javafx. We need an iOS-build, an Android-build 
>> and a Windows-build for the jre and javafx. Don't get me wrong you can prototype where ever you want even on Pi, but 
>> don't forget to deploy to a platform of importance.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> One more thing:
>> ---------------
>> To be honest ADF is kind of a myth to me. I see some use cases for a technology like this but not many. It's always
>> the same lame banking software.
>> Okay, ADF is a really easy to use in business software (banking,insurance and so on) and very small and easy projects on the other side. 
>> If a customer has a little more demand on new technologies you'll be lost with ADF, then comes JavaFX in the game. 
>> Porting from ADF to JavaFX should be that hard, but you cannot deploy it on the same platforms like ADF. There is a gap 
>> in the portfolio from my point of view.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> these are my 2 cents 
>> Matthias
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> Am 30.09.2013 um 12:13 schrieb Felix Bembrick <felix.bembrick at gmail.com>:
>>> 
>>> Hey, I am trying to hose-down the political talk!  I encourage everyone to
>>> take a deep breath and focus on the many positives of the awesome
>>> technology that is JavaFX :-)
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> On 30 September 2013 20:03, Hervé Girod <herve.girod at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> It's not the place to talk politics here. If you want to channel your
>>>> frustration, do it in your blog if you have one.
>>>> 
>>>> Hervé
>>>> 
>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>> 
>>>>> On 30 sept. 2013, at 11:14, Tobias Bley <tobi at ultramixer.com> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> I absolutely agree Daniel. I opened a very important bug reporting
>>>> concerning JFX performance on iPhone which currently prevents using JavaFX
>>>> (and RoboVM) to build apps for the iPhone (
>>>> https://javafx-jira.kenai.com/browse/RT-31453) this bug report is open
>>>> since 3(!) month!  How shall the community build things for iOS if a very
>>>> base feature (bug) is not fixed by Oracles core team??? It’s a very bad
>>>> sign for engaged developers outside Oracle!
>>>>> 
>>>>> So maybe we should say good by to the legacy of SUN and use web
>>>> technologies like JQuery, ExtJS, … with real community power and without an
>>>> US company who sees only money and legal issues.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Maybe Larry loves to spend millions of dollars to win a boat race and
>>>> develop experimental „iPads“ rather then spend their time and money to
>>>> develop a technology with could be the base for ALL products, on Desktop,
>>>> embedded space, mobile, watches, …
>>>>> 
>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>> Tobi
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>>> Am 30.09.2013 um 10:39 schrieb Daniel Zwolenski <zonski at gmail.com>:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> The lack of information on iOS/Android is a major bummer, but this also
>>>> highlights a deeper problem here.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> We have a situation where Oracle won't talk to this community because
>>>> the topic is important, it's too big a game changer for them to comment on.
>>>> It's tied in with share prices, and market strategies.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> So won't that be the case for anything *important* going forward? We
>>>> "community" members are outsiders and very lowly ranked, well below "real"
>>>> customers and even below random punters from the media. There's not even a
>>>> way for us to rank bugs and get them attention (even if we provide fixes!).
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> What kind of community can this ever be if anything important can't be
>>>> discussed here before it's locked in, because it risks Oracle giving up a
>>>> commercial edge? Is this then a community only for discussing our favourite
>>>> method names for the API and pointing out that an enum constant is missing?
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> I can't see any way that this forum provides any significant
>>>> contributions back to the platform - the occasional bug fix at best. JIRA
>>>> is fine for discussing bugs, method names and little things like that. Any
>>>> of the real community initiatives are run completely separate to this forum
>>>> because Oracle doesn't want anything to do with them, and all the
>>>> significant platform work takes place behind Oracle's closed doors and we
>>>> only hear about it after it's a done deal.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> From where I'm standing, the Oracle community concept is fundamentally
>>>> flawed, and the root cause is that Oracle just don't get how to interact
>>>> with a community. You want to use us but you're not very good at it, you're
>>>> not trying to improve (you don't think there's a problem) and ultimately
>>>> Oracle's culture won't let you do it properly anyway. The current approach
>>>> is a little like a car salesman trying to be your Facebook "friend".
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> All the initiatives I got involved with through this forum have gone
>>>> nowhere - deployment (auto updating), the early Maven deployment work
>>>> (which Richard asked for), the tower defender game (which Richard asked
>>>> for), the jfx browser (which Richard asked for), even stuff as simple as
>>>> JIRA dashboards (which Richard again asked for).
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> All these hit points where they needed Oracle to do their part of it
>>>> and then just stalled and then died. This community could have fostered a
>>>> lot of tools and efforts, and really propelled JFX into the bigger dev
>>>> community, but instead, for me, it has been a constant source of stress and
>>>> dissatisfaction, a hinderance and a hurdle. All pain, no gain.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> The only initiatives I actually made work were the JavaFX Maven plugin
>>>> and the RoboVM Maven plugin. With both of these I made a conscious decision
>>>> to not involve this forum or Oracle. I decided to cludge around platform
>>>> shortcomings, rather than work with Oracle to fix it (5 minute fixes would
>>>> have saved me days of work).
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> That was the only way I could make these initiatives succeed since this
>>>> forum is a hinderance to contributing. It gives a false sense that Oracle
>>>> is listening and actively supporting the community. To anyone out there
>>>> wanting to do something in JFX tool space, I'd say start by leaving this
>>>> forum and working out what you can do without any access to the Oracle
>>>> guys, even if you make your own code contributions to the platform. Assume
>>>> you're an outsider - the cavalry is not coming, you're on your own.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Given all that I'm walking away from this forum. I was waiting to hear
>>>> about the iOS/Android stuff first, but really even if they did announce
>>>> anything, it would be a long shot at best (untested, low resources, lack of
>>>> solid direction and most likely tied in with some Oracle ADF garbage or
>>>> similar). The uncertainty created by Oracle's mixed messages also killed
>>>> all momentum on the community RoboVM work. Meanwhile web based stuff is
>>>> getting stronger, cleaner and better tool support at an exponential rate,
>>>> including in the mobile space.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> If JavaFX one day actually provides a usable platform for non-Oracle
>>>> entrenched customers, and the developer world notices, I'll certainly
>>>> consider it. I reckon I'll hear about that through the usual tech media
>>>> channels first, rather than through here though. As Oracle themselves
>>>> pointed out at the 2012 JavaOne session the smart money is on web based
>>>> stuff (check out backbone.js and marionette.js for a desktop-like coding
>>>> experience, not bad and will get better faster than JFX improves).
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> On that note, the JavaFX Maven plugin is about to go into decay mode.
>>>> It needs to be updated to work on Maven 3.1 (some libraries have changed
>>>> from 3.0) and there are a number of bugs and feature requests building up
>>>> that I've been ignoring. I have no incentive to do any of this so it will
>>>> unfortunately just rot. If anyone wants to pick it up, let me know (you
>>>> need a few free hours a week just to maintain it). I'm picking up stumps
>>>> and moving on.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> I also have the access rights for the openjfx Maven repo on Sonatype
>>>> (needed to deploy to Maven central). I imagine Sonatype would grant this
>>>> access to others if you apply and make a case for it, but if anyone wants
>>>> to do this let me know and I can notify sonatype to give you access and
>>>> save you some hassles.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> I think Niklas has the RoboVM Maven Plugin sorted now and can do
>>>> enhancements on that but I'm sure if anyone wanted to help him out he
>>>> wouldn't say no.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>> Dan
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Mon, Sep 30, 2013 at 5:04 PM, Tobias Bley <tobi at ultramixer.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> I don’t understand why „all“ this people who needs JavaFX on
>>>> iOS/Android does not tell it Oracles management. And I don’t understand why
>>>> all this people use their time to develop all this demos and Rasp.PI stuff.
>>>> Who needs it? Why don’t we develop base stuff like iOS skins, Android
>>>> skins, iOS/Android widgets, RoboVM for Android, RoboVM using OpenJDK, … I
>>>> really love useful stuff like the „JavaFX maven plugin“ or the „AquaFX“
>>>> project. That kind of development we need!
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Best,
>>>>>> Tobi
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Am 30.09.2013 um 08:50 schrieb Felix Bembrick <
>>>> felix.bembrick at gmail.com>:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> No, you are *not* the only one. We *all* need it.  In fact, without it
>>>> happening soon, JavaFX is already dead.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> But let's not give up yet.  Perhaps it's closer than we know. I am a
>>>> glass half full kinda guy :-)
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> On 30 Sep 2013, at 16:40, Tobias Bley <tobi at ultramixer.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> I suppose „legal reasons“….
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> For me it’s very frustrating to see every year the same procedure:
>>>> JavaFX-iOS/Android related tracks were canceled - „nerd“ stuff like
>>>> Rasp.PI, DukePad & Co were announced. Maybe I’m really the only one who
>>>> needs JavaFX on mobile to use JavaFX on desktop as well… :(
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Am 29.09.2013 um 18:13 schrieb Jeff Martin <jeff at reportmill.com>:
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> It seems the JFX on iOS/Android were cancelled at the last moment. I
>>>> tried to keep expectations low this year, but I admit I harbored secret
>>>> hopes based on those sessions (a few embarrassingly optimistic
>>>> conversations with clients notwithstanding).
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Last week Tomas offered this:
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> about cancelled sessions please contact Mr. JavaOne
>>>> stephen.chin at oracle.com I believe he will give satisfactory answer.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> I'd like to take him up on that satisfactory offer. Also, can we run
>>>> the name "DukePad" by marketing again?
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> :-)
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> jeff
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> On Sep 29, 2013, at 12:12 AM, Daniel Zwolenski <zonski at gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> The sessions aren't up yet from the looks of it. It would be great
>>>> to get an overall roundup of any new announcements or directions in any
>>>> case. Given this is the developer community network it would make sense in
>>>> my mind to highlight stuff like that in here.
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> For me, I'd love it if someone could quickly sum up any
>>>> announcements or sessions made about JavaFX for iOS, Android or in the
>>>> deployment space?
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> What happened at the sessions Tobi highlighted before (
>>>> http://blog.software4java.com/?p=97), did anyone go to these and able to
>>>> give us some info?
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> On 27/09/2013, at 7:07 AM, Richard Bair <richard.bair at oracle.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> The sessions, I think, are all being uploaded to Parley's (
>>>> http://www.parleys.com), although I don't see any content there yet (not
>>>> sure how long it will take them to post-process, but usually it is pretty
>>>> fast).
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>> Richard
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sep 26, 2013, at 2:00 PM, Daniel Zwolenski <zonski at gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> Has anyone done or seen any good roundups (text or video) of the
>>>> JavaOne sessions relating to javafx?
>>

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