Innovation again (was Re: Text classes)

[Paul Ray Russell]

Hi John,

>>>Re: Significant improvements in scene graph rendering speed using modern
game-engine style structures and algorithms.

Agree,

Also, I haven't been feeling the enthusiasm either. It's a mood that's
permeating the user base. You just have to scout YouTube for JavaFX games,
to read the mood. It's all feeling a bit like the last throws of Swing did.

To my mind, JavaFX is the perfect 2D gaming platform, it just misses better
lighting.

I'd like to see the scene graph speed improved, and more work on the
lighting for games. I'm busy working on our game : kattrunonthetide.com (
https://www.facebook.com/KattGame/) : Javafx is proving to be a great
platform. If one "applies" azimuth lights to a flat canvas scene, (one with
no scene graph) the bump mapping seems automatic.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1y0WHd5LiIWu1qSvRiHyPrPKBP2fp4gXL/view?usp=sharing

But, the effect is ill documented, and I think it would be great to have
more work in the this area.

Some way to access pixels at high speed would be brilliant too. I know
nothing of the Java shading language, JSL, and still think this would be a
great addition if exposed.

Currently something like LibGDX is a much better choice for games writing
than JavaFX. Eyes to OpenGL, but I still think JavaFX with all it's great
UI support (and FXGL library) should still be a good choice.

Best,
Paul


On 6 December 2017 at 08:36, <openjfx-dev-request at openjdk.java.net> wrote:

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> Today's Topics:
>
>    1. Re: Innovation again (was Re: Text classes) (John-Val Rose)
>    2. RE: Innovation again (was Re: Text classes) (Markus KARG)
>    3. Re: Innovation again (was Re: Text classes) (Mario Torre)
>    4. RE: Innovation again (was Re: Text classes) (Markus KARG)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2017 17:16:07 +1100
> From: John-Val Rose <johnvalrose at gmail.com>
> To: Philip Race <philip.race at oracle.com>
> Cc: openjfx-dev at openjdk.java.net
> Subject: Re: Innovation again (was Re: Text classes)
> Message-ID: <2FA8027D-79B1-4339-8BCA-6B5CB58D37E5 at gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain;       charset=utf-8
>
> Absolutely - there needs to be a viable community that is not just Oracle.
>
> So, is there one? If not, how do we build one?
>
> OK, so let me rephrase my earlier email:
>
> I am willing to work with *anyone* (within Oracle or not) on the features
> that the community craves, such as those I listed (and any others). Not
> just because ?many hands make light work? but because I don?t know
> everything (or even close) and I need the knowledge and skills of others to
> assist me. Not to mention that I have only 24 hours in a day like everyone
> else and, also like everyone else, some of that time has to be devoted to
> earning an income.
>
> So, if there?s anyone reading this who has the time, the skills, the
> commitment and the passion to work hard (in your own time) to get these
> tasks done then please contact me privately.
>
> > On 6 Dec 2017, at 16:50, Philip Race <philip.race at oracle.com> wrote:
> >
> > There needs to be a viable community that is not just Oracle to support
> you here ..
> > I think everyone has come to be dependent on Oracle to "be there".
> > But if there is a specific community need that Oracle doesn't see as
> essential, then the community should help out.
> >
> > -phil.
> >
> >> On 12/5/17, 9:27 PM, John-Val Rose wrote:
> >> Well, that?s all fine but you didn?t address the issue of working with
> someone within Oracle to get these innovations done.
> >>
> >> Sure, I could just toil away by myself but clearly it would be better
> all around if there was someone with much more extensive knowledge of
> JavaFX and its internals who was accessible when required.
> >>
> >> I would assume that a member of the Oracle JavaFX team would be such a
> person. If not, then who?
> >>
> >>> On 6 Dec 2017, at 15:53, Philip Race<philip.race at oracle.com>  wrote:
> >>>
> >>> I think looking at it as an Oracle-owned and controlled project maybe
> the first mistake here.
> >>> Yes it was closed source and then Oracle controlled, but not any more,
> OCA requirements aside.
> >>> It is not even a "java specification". It can be evolved at an API
> level without a JSR.
> >>> The JEP process is the main thing to be followed, although we also use
> CSRs too to track API.
> >>> Consider it that anyone who is a contributor owns (not the right word
> ?) a piece of it too.
> >>> So standing on the project is what matters. Not the company who pays
> you to work on it.
> >>>
> >>> -phil.
> >>>
> >>>> On 12/5/17, 8:21 PM, John-Val Rose wrote:
> >>>> Phil et. al.,
> >>>>
> >>>> Whilst I?m not going to be quite as ?passionate? as some on this
> issue (although I do understand the frustration), I would like to point out
> again that this is indeed a huge gap and it is critical that it is filled
> ASAP.
> >>>>
> >>>> Obviously a solution where every word in a text document is a Node
> would be unworkable so it would need to be architected from the ground up.
> >>>>
> >>>> I would be happy to work on such as feature, just as I was happy to
> work on implementing WebGL, but my hesitation is concern over the
> assistance and involvement from Oracle.
> >>>>
> >>>> If I am going to have to spend months working on something without
> any or only minimal involvement from Oracle, only to find at the end that
> Oracle either doesn?t like the design, implementation or something else
> then it is wasted time I?ll never get back.
> >>>>
> >>>> There are lots of other innovations too that I would like to see in
> JavaFX but I just don?t ?feel the enthusiasm? from Oracle.
> >>>>
> >>>> If there is someone on the JavaFX team who would be willing to work
> with me (at least in some capacity), please have them contact me privately
> via email.
> >>>>
> >>>> The innovations I could work on and contribute include:
> >>>>
> >>>> 1. WebGL support in WebView
> >>>> 2. Better text support including text documents&   rich text editors
> etc.
> >>>> 3. Significant improvements in scene graph rendering speed using
> modern game-engine style structures and algorithms
> >>>>
> >>>> JavaFX cannot survive without innovation and I am keen to see it
> happen and contribute as much as possible.
> >>>>
> >>>> Graciously,
> >>>>
> >>>> John-Val Rose
> >>>> Rosethorn Technology
> >>>>
> >>>>> On 6 Dec 2017, at 11:36, javafx at use.startmail.com wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Sorry about all the typos previously.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Question- why not use the code in awt ? I am not totally up on
> what's going on with the platforms' native rendering engines ( meaning, I
> have no idea whatsoever) or how they have changed, but golly it sure does
> still work pretty well.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>  At least it seems to me looking at awt that a smallish number of
> things are 1) well defined by the native platofrm and 2) would more or less
> translate directly to an Java API and 3) from those small number of
> building blocks, (Font and Glyph metrics and this kind of thing)   text
> line layout algorithms can be written by ordinary civilians along with all
> the other stuff that goes into a text editor.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> And yes, everything does look easy when someone else is going to do
> it.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2017 09:07:03 +0100
> From: "Markus KARG" <markus at headcrashing.eu>
> To: <openjfx-dev at openjdk.java.net>
> Subject: RE: Innovation again (was Re: Text classes)
> Message-ID: <01a001d36e69$33afff70$9b0ffe50$@eu>
> Content-Type: text/plain;       charset="UTF-8"
>
> I think what John actually asked for is whom to send his design upfront at
> the JFX team to get an initial judgement whether it is worth programming
> it, or whether it bears such flaws that it makes not much sense to invest
> any more time. Whether or not that decision is done by an Oracle employee
> or not, he simply needs to know whom to sent his proposal for early review.
>
> -Markus
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: openjfx-dev [mailto:openjfx-dev-bounces at openjdk.java.net] On Behalf
> Of Philip Race
> Sent: Mittwoch, 6. Dezember 2017 06:50
> To: John-Val Rose
> Cc: openjfx-dev at openjdk.java.net
> Subject: Re: Innovation again (was Re: Text classes)
>
> There needs to be a viable community that is not just Oracle to support
> you here ..
> I think everyone has come to be dependent on Oracle to "be there".
> But if there is a specific community need that Oracle doesn't see as
> essential, then the community should help out.
>
> -phil.
>
> On 12/5/17, 9:27 PM, John-Val Rose wrote:
> > Well, that?s all fine but you didn?t address the issue of working with
> someone within Oracle to get these innovations done.
> >
> > Sure, I could just toil away by myself but clearly it would be better
> all around if there was someone with much more extensive knowledge of
> JavaFX and its internals who was accessible when required.
> >
> > I would assume that a member of the Oracle JavaFX team would be such a
> person. If not, then who?
> >
> >> On 6 Dec 2017, at 15:53, Philip Race<philip.race at oracle.com>  wrote:
> >>
> >> I think looking at it as an Oracle-owned and controlled project maybe
> the first mistake here.
> >> Yes it was closed source and then Oracle controlled, but not any more,
> OCA requirements aside.
> >> It is not even a "java specification". It can be evolved at an API
> level without a JSR.
> >> The JEP process is the main thing to be followed, although we also use
> CSRs too to track API.
> >> Consider it that anyone who is a contributor owns (not the right word
> ?) a piece of it too.
> >> So standing on the project is what matters. Not the company who pays
> you to work on it.
> >>
> >> -phil.
> >>
> >>> On 12/5/17, 8:21 PM, John-Val Rose wrote:
> >>> Phil et. al.,
> >>>
> >>> Whilst I?m not going to be quite as ?passionate? as some on this issue
> (although I do understand the frustration), I would like to point out again
> that this is indeed a huge gap and it is critical that it is filled ASAP.
> >>>
> >>> Obviously a solution where every word in a text document is a Node
> would be unworkable so it would need to be architected from the ground up.
> >>>
> >>> I would be happy to work on such as feature, just as I was happy to
> work on implementing WebGL, but my hesitation is concern over the
> assistance and involvement from Oracle.
> >>>
> >>> If I am going to have to spend months working on something without any
> or only minimal involvement from Oracle, only to find at the end that
> Oracle either doesn?t like the design, implementation or something else
> then it is wasted time I?ll never get back.
> >>>
> >>> There are lots of other innovations too that I would like to see in
> JavaFX but I just don?t ?feel the enthusiasm? from Oracle.
> >>>
> >>> If there is someone on the JavaFX team who would be willing to work
> with me (at least in some capacity), please have them contact me privately
> via email.
> >>>
> >>> The innovations I could work on and contribute include:
> >>>
> >>> 1. WebGL support in WebView
> >>> 2. Better text support including text documents&   rich text editors
> etc.
> >>> 3. Significant improvements in scene graph rendering speed using
> >>> modern game-engine style structures and algorithms
> >>>
> >>> JavaFX cannot survive without innovation and I am keen to see it
> happen and contribute as much as possible.
> >>>
> >>> Graciously,
> >>>
> >>> John-Val Rose
> >>> Rosethorn Technology
> >>>
> >>>> On 6 Dec 2017, at 11:36, javafx at use.startmail.com wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> Sorry about all the typos previously.
> >>>>
> >>>> Question- why not use the code in awt ? I am not totally up on what's
> going on with the platforms' native rendering engines ( meaning, I have no
> idea whatsoever) or how they have changed, but golly it sure does still
> work pretty well.
> >>>>
> >>>>   At least it seems to me looking at awt that a smallish number of
> things are 1) well defined by the native platofrm and 2) would more or less
> translate directly to an Java API and 3) from those small number of
> building blocks, (Font and Glyph metrics and this kind of thing)   text
> line layout algorithms can be written by ordinary civilians along with all
> the other stuff that goes into a text editor.
> >>>>
> >>>> And yes, everything does look easy when someone else is going to do
> it.
> >>>>
> >>>>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2017 08:11:14 +0000
> From: Mario Torre <neugens.limasoftware at gmail.com>
> To: Markus KARG <markus at headcrashing.eu>
> Cc: openjfx-dev at openjdk.java.net
> Subject: Re: Innovation again (was Re: Text classes)
> Message-ID:
>         <CAGUMyaT7sDZhpc8X-K1_EUuKeoR46vONMtMCsMaK0X+
> wheR1tA at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
>
> I think Phil said that, the way to propose such changes is to file a Jep
> and discuss it here.
>
> Cheers,
> Mario
>
> On Wed 6. Dec 2017 at 09:07, Markus KARG <markus at headcrashing.eu> wrote:
>
> > I think what John actually asked for is whom to send his design upfront
> at
> > the JFX team to get an initial judgement whether it is worth programming
> > it, or whether it bears such flaws that it makes not much sense to invest
> > any more time. Whether or not that decision is done by an Oracle employee
> > or not, he simply needs to know whom to sent his proposal for early
> review.
> >
> > -Markus
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: openjfx-dev [mailto:openjfx-dev-bounces at openjdk.java.net] On
> Behalf
> > Of Philip Race
> > Sent: Mittwoch, 6. Dezember 2017 06:50
> > To: John-Val Rose
> > Cc: openjfx-dev at openjdk.java.net
> > Subject: Re: Innovation again (was Re: Text classes)
> >
> > There needs to be a viable community that is not just Oracle to support
> > you here ..
> > I think everyone has come to be dependent on Oracle to "be there".
> > But if there is a specific community need that Oracle doesn't see as
> > essential, then the community should help out.
> >
> > -phil.
> >
> > On 12/5/17, 9:27 PM, John-Val Rose wrote:
> > > Well, that?s all fine but you didn?t address the issue of working with
> > someone within Oracle to get these innovations done.
> > >
> > > Sure, I could just toil away by myself but clearly it would be better
> > all around if there was someone with much more extensive knowledge of
> > JavaFX and its internals who was accessible when required.
> > >
> > > I would assume that a member of the Oracle JavaFX team would be such a
> > person. If not, then who?
> > >
> > >> On 6 Dec 2017, at 15:53, Philip Race<philip.race at oracle.com>  wrote:
> > >>
> > >> I think looking at it as an Oracle-owned and controlled project maybe
> > the first mistake here.
> > >> Yes it was closed source and then Oracle controlled, but not any more,
> > OCA requirements aside.
> > >> It is not even a "java specification". It can be evolved at an API
> > level without a JSR.
> > >> The JEP process is the main thing to be followed, although we also use
> > CSRs too to track API.
> > >> Consider it that anyone who is a contributor owns (not the right word
> > ?) a piece of it too.
> > >> So standing on the project is what matters. Not the company who pays
> > you to work on it.
> > >>
> > >> -phil.
> > >>
> > >>> On 12/5/17, 8:21 PM, John-Val Rose wrote:
> > >>> Phil et. al.,
> > >>>
> > >>> Whilst I?m not going to be quite as ?passionate? as some on this
> issue
> > (although I do understand the frustration), I would like to point out
> again
> > that this is indeed a huge gap and it is critical that it is filled ASAP.
> > >>>
> > >>> Obviously a solution where every word in a text document is a Node
> > would be unworkable so it would need to be architected from the ground
> up.
> > >>>
> > >>> I would be happy to work on such as feature, just as I was happy to
> > work on implementing WebGL, but my hesitation is concern over the
> > assistance and involvement from Oracle.
> > >>>
> > >>> If I am going to have to spend months working on something without
> any
> > or only minimal involvement from Oracle, only to find at the end that
> > Oracle either doesn?t like the design, implementation or something else
> > then it is wasted time I?ll never get back.
> > >>>
> > >>> There are lots of other innovations too that I would like to see in
> > JavaFX but I just don?t ?feel the enthusiasm? from Oracle.
> > >>>
> > >>> If there is someone on the JavaFX team who would be willing to work
> > with me (at least in some capacity), please have them contact me
> privately
> > via email.
> > >>>
> > >>> The innovations I could work on and contribute include:
> > >>>
> > >>> 1. WebGL support in WebView
> > >>> 2. Better text support including text documents&   rich text editors
> > etc.
> > >>> 3. Significant improvements in scene graph rendering speed using
> > >>> modern game-engine style structures and algorithms
> > >>>
> > >>> JavaFX cannot survive without innovation and I am keen to see it
> > happen and contribute as much as possible.
> > >>>
> > >>> Graciously,
> > >>>
> > >>> John-Val Rose
> > >>> Rosethorn Technology
> > >>>
> > >>>> On 6 Dec 2017, at 11:36, javafx at use.startmail.com wrote:
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Sorry about all the typos previously.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Question- why not use the code in awt ? I am not totally up on
> what's
> > going on with the platforms' native rendering engines ( meaning, I have
> no
> > idea whatsoever) or how they have changed, but golly it sure does still
> > work pretty well.
> > >>>>
> > >>>>   At least it seems to me looking at awt that a smallish number of
> > things are 1) well defined by the native platofrm and 2) would more or
> less
> > translate directly to an Java API and 3) from those small number of
> > building blocks, (Font and Glyph metrics and this kind of thing)   text
> > line layout algorithms can be written by ordinary civilians along with
> all
> > the other stuff that goes into a text editor.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> And yes, everything does look easy when someone else is going to do
> > it.
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> >
> >
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2017 09:33:03 +0100
> From: "Markus KARG" <markus at headcrashing.eu>
> To: <openjfx-dev at openjdk.java.net>
> Subject: RE: Innovation again (was Re: Text classes)
> Message-ID: <001c01d36e6c$d5391e50$7fab5af0$@eu>
> Content-Type: text/plain;       charset="UTF-8"
>
> Yes, but not everything needs a JEP always. Maybe what Phil has in mind is
> small enough to be accepted without. Somebody has to decide before filing
> the JEP.
>
> -Markus
>
>
>
> From: Mario Torre [mailto:neugens.limasoftware at gmail.com]
> Sent: Mittwoch, 6. Dezember 2017 09:11
> To: Markus KARG
> Cc: openjfx-dev at openjdk.java.net
> Subject: Re: Innovation again (was Re: Text classes)
>
>
>
> I think Phil said that, the way to propose such changes is to file a Jep
> and discuss it here.
>
>
>
> Cheers,
>
> Mario
>
>
>
> On Wed 6. Dec 2017 at 09:07, Markus KARG <markus at headcrashing.eu> wrote:
>
> I think what John actually asked for is whom to send his design upfront at
> the JFX team to get an initial judgement whether it is worth programming
> it, or whether it bears such flaws that it makes not much sense to invest
> any more time. Whether or not that decision is done by an Oracle employee
> or not, he simply needs to know whom to sent his proposal for early review.
>
> -Markus
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: openjfx-dev [mailto:openjfx-dev-bounces at openjdk.java.net] On Behalf
> Of Philip Race
> Sent: Mittwoch, 6. Dezember 2017 06:50
> To: John-Val Rose
> Cc: openjfx-dev at openjdk.java.net
> Subject: Re: Innovation again (was Re: Text classes)
>
> There needs to be a viable community that is not just Oracle to support
> you here ..
> I think everyone has come to be dependent on Oracle to "be there".
> But if there is a specific community need that Oracle doesn't see as
> essential, then the community should help out.
>
> -phil.
>
> On 12/5/17, 9:27 PM, John-Val Rose wrote:
> > Well, that?s all fine but you didn?t address the issue of working with
> someone within Oracle to get these innovations done.
> >
> > Sure, I could just toil away by myself but clearly it would be better
> all around if there was someone with much more extensive knowledge of
> JavaFX and its internals who was accessible when required.
> >
> > I would assume that a member of the Oracle JavaFX team would be such a
> person. If not, then who?
> >
> >> On 6 Dec 2017, at 15:53, Philip Race<philip.race at oracle.com>  wrote:
> >>
> >> I think looking at it as an Oracle-owned and controlled project maybe
> the first mistake here.
> >> Yes it was closed source and then Oracle controlled, but not any more,
> OCA requirements aside.
> >> It is not even a "java specification". It can be evolved at an API
> level without a JSR.
> >> The JEP process is the main thing to be followed, although we also use
> CSRs too to track API.
> >> Consider it that anyone who is a contributor owns (not the right word
> ?) a piece of it too.
> >> So standing on the project is what matters. Not the company who pays
> you to work on it.
> >>
> >> -phil.
> >>
> >>> On 12/5/17, 8:21 PM, John-Val Rose wrote:
> >>> Phil et. al.,
> >>>
> >>> Whilst I?m not going to be quite as ?passionate? as some on this issue
> (although I do understand the frustration), I would like to point out again
> that this is indeed a huge gap and it is critical that it is filled ASAP.
> >>>
> >>> Obviously a solution where every word in a text document is a Node
> would be unworkable so it would need to be architected from the ground up.
> >>>
> >>> I would be happy to work on such as feature, just as I was happy to
> work on implementing WebGL, but my hesitation is concern over the
> assistance and involvement from Oracle.
> >>>
> >>> If I am going to have to spend months working on something without any
> or only minimal involvement from Oracle, only to find at the end that
> Oracle either doesn?t like the design, implementation or something else
> then it is wasted time I?ll never get back.
> >>>
> >>> There are lots of other innovations too that I would like to see in
> JavaFX but I just don?t ?feel the enthusiasm? from Oracle.
> >>>
> >>> If there is someone on the JavaFX team who would be willing to work
> with me (at least in some capacity), please have them contact me privately
> via email.
> >>>
> >>> The innovations I could work on and contribute include:
> >>>
> >>> 1. WebGL support in WebView
> >>> 2. Better text support including text documents&   rich text editors
> etc.
> >>> 3. Significant improvements in scene graph rendering speed using
> >>> modern game-engine style structures and algorithms
> >>>
> >>> JavaFX cannot survive without innovation and I am keen to see it
> happen and contribute as much as possible.
> >>>
> >>> Graciously,
> >>>
> >>> John-Val Rose
> >>> Rosethorn Technology
> >>>
> >>>> On 6 Dec 2017, at 11:36, javafx at use.startmail.com wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> Sorry about all the typos previously.
> >>>>
> >>>> Question- why not use the code in awt ? I am not totally up on what's
> going on with the platforms' native rendering engines ( meaning, I have no
> idea whatsoever) or how they have changed, but golly it sure does still
> work pretty well.
> >>>>
> >>>>   At least it seems to me looking at awt that a smallish number of
> things are 1) well defined by the native platofrm and 2) would more or less
> translate directly to an Java API and 3) from those small number of
> building blocks, (Font and Glyph metrics and this kind of thing)   text
> line layout algorithms can be written by ordinary civilians along with all
> the other stuff that goes into a text editor.
> >>>>
> >>>> And yes, everything does look easy when someone else is going to do
> it.
> >>>>
> >>>>
>
>
>
> End of openjfx-dev Digest, Vol 73, Issue 11
> *******************************************
>