More community participation in JavaFX

[John-Val Rose]

Well, then one of us is "off topic"...


Kevin Rushforth:

"We are specifically looking to discuss ideas around the following areas:
* Easing barriers to contribution (e.g., making JavaFX easier to build,
better documentation, making it easier to test changes)
* Code review policies
* API / feature review policies
* Code review tools (we currently use webrev, but that isn't set in stone)"

On 4 February 2018 at 13:29, Stephen Desofi <sdesofi at icloud.com> wrote:

> John,
>
>      I think you and I are thinking on two different levels.    You are
> talking about the mechanics of making contributing to JavaFX easier.    I
> am talking about making the motivations of contributing to JavaFX easier.
>
> Steve
>
> Sent from iCloud
>
> On Feb 03, 2018, at 09:14 PM, John-Val Rose <johnvalrose at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Stephen,
>
> 1. Swift and your "crystal ball" view of its spectacular success in the
> future has nothing whatsoever to do with making contributing to JavaFX
> easier.
>
> 2. Like everyone else who already wants to contribute to JavaFX, we don't
> need someone to provide us with "a compelling story as to why developers
> should join and contribute".
>
> 3. TL;DR
>
> John-Val Rose
> ​ (trying to be polite)​
>
> On 4 February 2018 at 12:58, Stephen Desofi <sdesofi at icloud.com> wrote:
>
>> John,
>>
>>      The point I am making is that Swift is catching up as a cross
>> platform toolkit and is available on:
>>
>> Mac and iOS, (Full Support)
>> https://www.swift.org <https://swift.org>
>>
>> Android (early)
>>
>> https://academy.realm.io/posts/swift-on-android/
>>
>>
>> Linux:  (early)
>>
>>
>> https://itsfoss.com/use-swift-linux/
>>
>>
>> Windows: (early)
>>
>>
>> https://www.infoworld.com/article/3067364/open-source-tools/
>> swift-for-windows-arrives-at-last-but-as-an-unofficial-port.html
>>
>>
>>
>> Browser:  (very Preliminary)
>>
>>
>> <https://stackoverflow.com/questions/46572144/compile-swift-to-webassembly>
>> https://stackoverflow.com/questions/46572144/compile-swift-to-webassembly
>>
>> Server Side:  (Mac and Linux)
>> https://www.swift.org <https://swift.org/>
>>
>>
>> So my point is that soon Swift will steal the Cross Platform Mantra from
>> Java.   It is happening very quickly and Swift has great graphics and
>> gaming capabilities as well.
>>
>>
>> Why would a new developer start with Java?    If we are looking 10 years
>> out, I think Apple is coming head on.
>>
>>
>> Also when you say this thread is about the ease with which the community
>> can contribute to JavaFX, it begs the question "what kinds of
>> contribution?".    Are we here to push the platform forward and contribute
>> new ideas or just do bug fixes?
>>
>>
>> Swift is a real threat to Java being the cross platform development King.
>>    Java can hold on to that story for only a couple more years.  It surely
>> won't last.
>>
>>
>> Dart also runs on Android and iOS via Flutter, has Server side Dart
>> option, runs in the Browser very well today with full support for SVG and
>> Canvas -- and if WebGPU becomes a Web standard, Google will most certainly
>> support it.
>>
>>
>> Looking toward the future, if Java doesn't run in the browser, doesn't
>> support games on any platform, and only works on iOS and Android via Gluon
>> VM, and does it with only limited graphics capability,  then I think
>> JavaFX will be a tough sell in the future.   Even tougher than it is today.
>>
>>
>> If the point of the discussion is to build the developer community, I
>> think we first need a compelling story as to why developers should join and
>> contribute.
>>
>>
>> The fact that I am using Dart and JavaFX, and I am seriously
>> considering if I should switch to Dart everywhere, or to Dart and Swift
>> (instead of Dart and FX) means JavaFX doesn't have the lead we think it
>> does.    I love JavaFX and would love to contribute, but it's hard when I
>> myself am looking at other options mainly because I also want my software
>> to be here 10 years from now, and I am seriously questioning if JavaFX will
>> keep up.
>>
>>
>> I think there is a small window of opportunity for JavaFX to make a stand
>> before it is permanently relegated to a Server side language.   This cross
>> platform story won't fly too much longer, especially when Swift starts to
>> run everywhere and in the browser too, and if Google does the same thing
>> with Dart, and they both support games, where will Java be?
>>
>>
>> If we are looking 10 years out then surely this will happen.   The big
>> question is what will we do, and where will JavaFX be?
>>
>>
>> Steve Desofi
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Feb 03, 2018, at 03:09 PM, John-Val Rose <johnvalrose at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>> Stephen - I’m not quite following you.
>>
>> This thread is about improving the ease with which the community can
>> contribute to JavaFX.
>>
>> I see no point in comparing JavaFX (a cross platform graphics toolkit for
>> JVM languages) with a Swift (a general purpose programming language that
>> runs on Apple hardware).
>>
>> On 4 Feb 2018, at 00:18, Stephen Desofi <sdesofi at icloud.com> wrote:
>>
>> This begs the question,  why has the bar been set too low?   I am new to
>> this community and don’t know much history other than a couple weeks of bug
>> fix messages flying by.
>>
>> I am not even clear of what our role and purpose is supposed to be.   Are
>> we here for only bug fixes, and follow the direction and flow that is
>> already set, or as contributors would we be allowed to contribute to the
>> goals and direction of JavaFX?
>>
>> FX is a good platform with great potential, but it biggest deficiency is
>> “mind share”.  People don’t see too many real world accomplishments that
>> knock your socks off.   Most people use web and phone to run apps.  PC and
>> Desktop apps are a small part of the market.
>>
>> Gluon has just recently released gluon VM and Gluon Mobile to allow FX on
>> phones and tablets.
>>
>> The problem I see is once I can use FX on phones how will it compete with
>> Swift?
>>
>> True that “write once, run everywhere” is important and Java has a lead
>> over Swift.  But Swift has a lead on capability.
>>
>> In the end Swift will catch up with Java in the “write once, run
>> anywhere” mantra.   Will FX catch up with Swift in graphics by then?
>>
>> Java has a lead in many areas, but if we look 10 years out, it seems
>> clear to me that Java needs to raise the bar or face extinction as a client
>> side development platform or forever be confined to the server.
>>
>> This is why I need some clarification as to what our role as contributors
>> is going to be.   I don’t believe an open source project can flourish if
>> the contributors have no say or stake in the direction.
>>
>> Steve Desofi
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>> On Feb 2, 2018, at 11:55 PM, John-Val Rose <johnvalrose at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> I think Kevin outlined in his opening post what would be considered "out
>> of scope".
>>
>> However, I agree with you on the basic premise that, in general, the bar
>> has been set way too low as to the potential use cases and performance of
>> JavaFX.  In fact, I firmly believe that games & complex visualisations etc.
>> *should* be possible with JavaFX given that most of the heavy lifting is
>> being done by the GPU.  It's just that, at the moment, the scene graph
>> rendering pipeline is significantly slower than it could be and it is for
>> this reason that we don't find applications using advanced 3D graphics &
>> animations etc. (like we see in games) being built with JavaFX.  It's just
>> not possible when the node count reaches even a very small threshold.
>>
>> This is a topic I have tried to discuss numerous times and also believe
>> that I can improve the performance of the scene graph rendering in a very
>> tangible way.
>>
>> If things pan-out as they are being described and becoming & being a
>> contributor is simplified to the extent where it justifies me devoting a
>> large chunk of my time to OpenJFX, this is probably what I would want to
>> work on first.
>>
>> ​​
>> Graciously,
>>
>> John-Val Rose
>>
>> On 3 February 2018 at 14:07, Stephen Desofi <sdesofi at icloud.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I don’t understand why discussing new graphics capabilities such as
>>> gaming or WebGPU, etc is so off limits.  Can you explain that?
>>>
>>> Steve Desofi
>>>
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>
>>> > On Feb 2, 2018, at 8:51 PM, Kevin Rushforth <
>>> kevin.rushforth at oracle.com> wrote:
>>> >
>>> > Looks like we have some good discussion so far.
>>> >
>>> > I see a few themes emerging (build/test, sandbox on GitHub, ease of
>>> filing bugs, etc) along with some discussion on graphics performance (which
>>> is fine as long as the discussion doesn't veer too far into discussing
>>> specific graphics features).
>>> >
>>> > I'll let more folks chime in before I reply to anything specifically
>>> (and I'll be offline over the weekend anyway).
>>> >
>>> > Thanks!
>>> >
>>> > -- Kevin
>>> >
>>>
>>
>>
>