More community participation in JavaFX
Kevin Rushforth
kevin.rushforth at oracle.com
Mon Feb 5 14:43:06 UTC 2018
I think a discussion on "where we should take the platform" is a good
one to have...just not as part of this thread.
-- Kevin
Stephen Desofi wrote:
> Yes, probably me.
>
> Sent from iCloud
>
> On Feb 03, 2018, at 09:35 PM, John-Val Rose <johnvalrose at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Well, then one of us is "off topic"...
>>
>>
>> Kevin Rushforth:
>>
>> "We are specifically looking to discuss ideas around the following areas:
>> * Easing barriers to contribution (e.g., making JavaFX easier to
>> build, better documentation, making it easier to test changes)
>> * Code review policies
>> * API / feature review policies
>> * Code review tools (we currently use webrev, but that isn't set in
>> stone)"
>>
>> On 4 February 2018 at 13:29, Stephen Desofi <sdesofi at icloud.com
>> <mailto:sdesofi at icloud.com>> wrote:
>>
>> John,
>>
>> I think you and I are thinking on two different levels.
>> You are talking about the mechanics of making contributing to
>> JavaFX easier. I am talking about making the motivations of
>> contributing to JavaFX easier.
>>
>> Steve
>>
>> Sent from iCloud
>>
>> On Feb 03, 2018, at 09:14 PM, John-Val Rose
>> <johnvalrose at gmail.com <mailto:johnvalrose at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>
>>> Stephen,
>>>
>>> 1. Swift and your "crystal ball" view of its spectacular success
>>> in the future has nothing whatsoever to do with making
>>> contributing to JavaFX easier.
>>>
>>> 2. Like everyone else who already wants to contribute to JavaFX,
>>> we don't need someone to provide us with "a compelling story as
>>> to why developers should join and contribute".
>>>
>>> 3. TL;DR
>>>
>>> John-Val Rose
>>> (trying to be polite)
>>>
>>> On 4 February 2018 at 12:58, Stephen Desofi <sdesofi at icloud.com
>>> <mailto:sdesofi at icloud.com>> wrote:
>>>
>>> John,
>>>
>>> The point I am making is that Swift is catching up as a
>>> cross platform toolkit and is available on:
>>>
>>> Mac and iOS, (Full Support)
>>> https://www.swift.org <https://swift.org>
>>>
>>> Android (early)
>>>
>>> https://academy.realm.io/posts/swift-on-android/
>>> <https://academy.realm.io/posts/swift-on-android/>
>>>
>>>
>>> Linux: (early)
>>>
>>>
>>> https://itsfoss.com/use-swift-linux/
>>> <https://itsfoss.com/use-swift-linux/>
>>>
>>>
>>> Windows: (early)
>>>
>>>
>>> https://www.infoworld.com/article/3067364/open-source-tools/swift-for-windows-arrives-at-last-but-as-an-unofficial-port.html
>>> <https://www.infoworld.com/article/3067364/open-source-tools/swift-for-windows-arrives-at-last-but-as-an-unofficial-port.html>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Browser: (very Preliminary)
>>>
>>>
>>> https://stackoverflow.com/questions/46572144/compile-swift-to-webassembly
>>> <https://stackoverflow.com/questions/46572144/compile-swift-to-webassembly>
>>>
>>> Server Side: (Mac and Linux)
>>> https://www.swift.org <https://swift.org/>
>>>
>>>
>>> So my point is that soon Swift will steal the Cross Platform
>>> Mantra from Java. It is happening very quickly and Swift
>>> has great graphics and gaming capabilities as well.
>>>
>>>
>>> Why would a new developer start with Java? If we are
>>> looking 10 years out, I think Apple is coming head on.
>>>
>>>
>>> Also when you say this thread is about the ease with which
>>> the community can contribute to JavaFX, it begs the question
>>> "what kinds of contribution?". Are we here to push the
>>> platform forward and contribute new ideas or just do bug fixes?
>>>
>>>
>>> Swift is a real threat to Java being the cross platform
>>> development King. Java can hold on to that story for only
>>> a couple more years. It surely won't last.
>>>
>>>
>>> Dart also runs on Android and iOS via Flutter, has Server
>>> side Dart option, runs in the Browser very well today with
>>> full support for SVG and Canvas -- and if WebGPU becomes a
>>> Web standard, Google will most certainly support it.
>>>
>>>
>>> Looking toward the future, if Java doesn't run in the
>>> browser, doesn't support games on any platform, and only
>>> works on iOS and Android via Gluon VM, and does it with only
>>> limited graphics capability, then I think JavaFX will be a
>>> tough sell in the future. Even tougher than it is today.
>>>
>>>
>>> If the point of the discussion is to build the developer
>>> community, I think we first need a compelling story as to
>>> why developers should join and contribute.
>>>
>>>
>>> The fact that I am using Dart and JavaFX, and I am seriously
>>> considering if I should switch to Dart everywhere, or to
>>> Dart and Swift (instead of Dart and FX) means JavaFX doesn't
>>> have the lead we think it does. I love JavaFX and would
>>> love to contribute, but it's hard when I myself am looking
>>> at other options mainly because I also want my software to
>>> be here 10 years from now, and I am seriously questioning if
>>> JavaFX will keep up.
>>>
>>>
>>> I think there is a small window of opportunity for JavaFX to
>>> make a stand before it is permanently relegated to a Server
>>> side language. This cross platform story won't fly too
>>> much longer, especially when Swift starts to run everywhere
>>> and in the browser too, and if Google does the same thing
>>> with Dart, and they both support games, where will Java be?
>>>
>>>
>>> If we are looking 10 years out then surely this will happen.
>>> The big question is what will we do, and where will JavaFX be?
>>>
>>>
>>> Steve Desofi
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Feb 03, 2018, at 03:09 PM, John-Val Rose
>>> <johnvalrose at gmail.com <mailto:johnvalrose at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Stephen - I’m not quite following you.
>>>>
>>>> This thread is about improving the ease with which the
>>>> community can contribute to JavaFX.
>>>>
>>>> I see no point in comparing JavaFX (a cross platform
>>>> graphics toolkit for JVM languages) with a Swift (a general
>>>> purpose programming language that runs on Apple hardware).
>>>>
>>>> On 4 Feb 2018, at 00:18, Stephen Desofi <sdesofi at icloud.com
>>>> <mailto:sdesofi at icloud.com>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> This begs the question, why has the bar been set too low?
>>>>> I am new to this community and don’t know much history
>>>>> other than a couple weeks of bug fix messages flying by.
>>>>>
>>>>> I am not even clear of what our role and purpose is
>>>>> supposed to be. Are we here for only bug fixes, and
>>>>> follow the direction and flow that is already set, or as
>>>>> contributors would we be allowed to contribute to the
>>>>> goals and direction of JavaFX?
>>>>>
>>>>> FX is a good platform with great potential, but it biggest
>>>>> deficiency is “mind share”. People don’t see too many
>>>>> real world accomplishments that knock your socks off.
>>>>> Most people use web and phone to run apps. PC and Desktop
>>>>> apps are a small part of the market.
>>>>>
>>>>> Gluon has just recently released gluon VM and Gluon Mobile
>>>>> to allow FX on phones and tablets.
>>>>>
>>>>> The problem I see is once I can use FX on phones how will
>>>>> it compete with Swift?
>>>>>
>>>>> True that “write once, run everywhere” is important and
>>>>> Java has a lead over Swift. But Swift has a lead on
>>>>> capability.
>>>>>
>>>>> In the end Swift will catch up with Java in the “write
>>>>> once, run anywhere” mantra. Will FX catch up with Swift
>>>>> in graphics by then?
>>>>>
>>>>> Java has a lead in many areas, but if we look 10 years
>>>>> out, it seems clear to me that Java needs to raise the bar
>>>>> or face extinction as a client side development platform
>>>>> or forever be confined to the server.
>>>>>
>>>>> This is why I need some clarification as to what our role
>>>>> as contributors is going to be. I don’t believe an open
>>>>> source project can flourish if the contributors have no
>>>>> say or stake in the direction.
>>>>>
>>>>> Steve Desofi
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>>
>>>>> On Feb 2, 2018, at 11:55 PM, John-Val Rose
>>>>> <johnvalrose at gmail.com <mailto:johnvalrose at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> I think Kevin outlined in his opening post what would be
>>>>>> considered "out of scope".
>>>>>>
>>>>>> However, I agree with you on the basic premise that, in
>>>>>> general, the bar has been set way too low as to the
>>>>>> potential use cases and performance of JavaFX. In fact,
>>>>>> I firmly believe that games & complex visualisations etc.
>>>>>> *should* be possible with JavaFX given that most of the
>>>>>> heavy lifting is being done by the GPU. It's just that,
>>>>>> at the moment, the scene graph rendering pipeline is
>>>>>> significantly slower than it could be and it is for this
>>>>>> reason that we don't find applications using advanced 3D
>>>>>> graphics & animations etc. (like we see in games) being
>>>>>> built with JavaFX. It's just not possible when the node
>>>>>> count reaches even a very small threshold.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This is a topic I have tried to discuss numerous times
>>>>>> and also believe that I can improve the performance of
>>>>>> the scene graph rendering in a very tangible way.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If things pan-out as they are being described and
>>>>>> becoming & being a contributor is simplified to the
>>>>>> extent where it justifies me devoting a large chunk of my
>>>>>> time to OpenJFX, this is probably what I would want to
>>>>>> work on first.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Graciously,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> John-Val Rose
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 3 February 2018 at 14:07, Stephen Desofi
>>>>>> <sdesofi at icloud.com <mailto:sdesofi at icloud.com>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I don’t understand why discussing new graphics
>>>>>> capabilities such as gaming or WebGPU, etc is so off
>>>>>> limits. Can you explain that?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Steve Desofi
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>>>
>>>>>> > On Feb 2, 2018, at 8:51 PM, Kevin Rushforth
>>>>>> <kevin.rushforth at oracle.com
>>>>>> <mailto:kevin.rushforth at oracle.com>> wrote:
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > Looks like we have some good discussion so far.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > I see a few themes emerging (build/test, sandbox on
>>>>>> GitHub, ease of filing bugs, etc) along with some
>>>>>> discussion on graphics performance (which is fine as
>>>>>> long as the discussion doesn't veer too far into
>>>>>> discussing specific graphics features).
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > I'll let more folks chime in before I reply to
>>>>>> anything specifically (and I'll be offline over the
>>>>>> weekend anyway).
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > Thanks!
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > -- Kevin
>>>>>> >
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>
>>
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