Moving discussions to GitHub?

[Johan Vos]

Right, but I don't think this needs to be done as part of the openjdk
organization -- especially not given the informal character I suggest for
this list.
There are a fair number of options where/how the discussion can be hosted.
Ironically, this is something that we might rather have to discuss on the
openjfx-discuss list.

- Johan


On Fri, Aug 20, 2021 at 4:55 PM Kevin Rushforth <kevin.rushforth at oracle.com>
wrote:

> Interesting idea about moving just the openjfx-discuss list to GitHub
> discussions, although even that will run into some resistance. Enabling
> any GitHub feature as part of the openjdk organization needs buy-in from
> the the larger openjdk community, and probably from the OpenJDK Project
> Lead.
>
> -- Kevin
>
>
> On 8/20/2021 7:30 AM, Johan Vos wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> > I see the value of Github Discussions, but I also see the value of the
> > mailinglists we are currently using. We have to realise though that this
> > particular list is about the *development* of OpenJFX, not about *using*
> > OpenJFX. Therefore, I believe it is ok to be more formal here, and a
> number
> > of things that make Github discussions more light-weight might imho
> > decrease productivity.
> >
> > But on the other hand, I also agree that the entry level is very high for
> > new developers. Years ago, I advocated for a separate "openjfx-discuss"
> > mailinglist where we would have more informal discussions and
> brainstorms.
> > We have that list but it's not frequently used. I was probably wrong in
> > suggesting this, as the style and formalism of the mailinglists does not
> > match with discussions amongst developers.
> > The idea of what I had for an "openjfx-discuss" mailinglist might work
> > better on Github Discussions. It would be a low-level entry point where
> new
> > ideas can be tossed. Personally, I don't see what's wrong with the
> > subscribe page (I love it when technology from the eighties is still
> > working :) ) but realistically, yes, it might turn away developers who
> > might have great ideas and time.
> >
> > In short: I'm +1 on keeping openjfx-dev to the current mailinglist, but I
> > think it could be good if we move openjfx-discuss to a github discussion.
> >
> > - Johan
> >
> >
> > On Fri, Aug 20, 2021 at 8:29 AM Sebastian Stenzel <
> > sebastian.stenzel at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> I am among the younger people here on the mailing lists (at least I
> think
> >> so) and I can very much relate to what Michael suggests. So here is my
> >> personal answer to the _why_ question:
> >>
> >> Mailing lists create an enormous barrier to external devs like myself
> who
> >> are willing to contribute:
> >> * Signing up to a means of the 80s feels just strange
> >> * Signing up to _any_ additional tool is deterring (same holds true for
> >> JBS), especially when you're used to low-threshold contributions to
> other
> >> projects can be
> >> * Therefore, signing up feels like a liability that you may not want to
> >> commit to, if you merely want to express your support for a single
> comment
> >> * It can be hard to find the correct mailing list for the topic you want
> >> to discuss
> >> * You'll
> >>     * either receive digests and miss a topic you're interested in
> >>     * or dozens of additional mails each day, alienating people who just
> >> want to follow specific discussions
> >> * No proper formatting
> >> * No proper linking to code, issues, PRs, ...
> >> * Hard to track diverging discussions
> >> * Very hard to search - I basically need to use Google and restrict the
> >> search to some mail archive
> >> * Linking to different topics means you need to either quote the whole
> >> thing or link to an archive
> >>
> >> On the other hand I see one important argument against GitHub
> Discussions:
> >> We have no control over how Discussions will change in the future. Even
> if
> >> they seem suitable today, we can't tell if it may be necessary to
> switch to
> >> yet another tool in 5 years. Each time you switch, you strip
> connections to
> >> discussions that took place on the previous platform. Switching tools
> >> always comes with a commitment to it and bears this risk.
> >>
> >> That said, I agree that this may not be something for OpenJFX to decide
> >> for its own. Maybe this discussion belongs on the skara mailing list
> (did I
> >> mention that it's hard to find the right mailing list, a topic belongs
> to?)
> >> Furthermore, changing a process is never easy and will scare people
> used to
> >> the status quo, especially when they've grown familiar with the old
> process
> >> over decades. I've seen this in companies many times. If there is no
> >> pressure to change, better tooling is not a strong enough argument to
> >> change processes.
> >>
> >>
> >>> On 20. Aug 2021, at 03:39, openjfx-dev-request at openjdk.java.net wrote:
> >>>
> >>> From: Philip Race <philip.race at oracle.com <mailto:
> philip.race at oracle.com
> >>> Subject: Re: Moving discussions to GitHub?
> >>> Date: 20. August 2021 at 03:39:04 CEST
> >>> To: Michael Strauß <michaelstrau2 at gmail.com <mailto:
> >> michaelstrau2 at gmail.com>>, "openjfx-dev at openjdk.java.net <mailto:
> >> openjfx-dev at openjdk.java.net> List" <openjfx-dev at openjdk.java.net
> <mailto:
> >> openjfx-dev at openjdk.java.net>>
> >>>
> >>> I am not sure that openjfx as an openjdk sponsored project can
> >> unilaterally decide this.
> >>> Nor sure that it makes sense either to be different.
> >>> And I've not felt the same disconnection you cite or have any idea why
> >>> this would be better or even match how we work.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> -phil.
> >>>
> >>> On 8/19/21 5:50 PM, Michael Strauß wrote:
> >>>> With the GitHub Discussions feature now out of beta*, I'd like to
> >>>> start a conversation on whether it could be a good idea for the
> >>>> OpenJFX project to embrace it as the primary place to discuss and
> >>>> interact with the broader community.
> >>>>
> >>>> While I understand that mailing lists have a long tradition with
> >>>> OpenJDK projects, I feel that they are not a great tool for building
> >>>> and maintaining a community. It's pretty hard to search archived mails
> >>>> and find relevant information or past discussions. Sure, you can do
> >>>> it, but it's not very inviting and accessible.
> >>>>
> >>>> It also seems to me that the mailing list is very disconnected from
> >>>> the people actually using OpenJFX. Since most people already are on
> >>>> GitHub, and most people interested in OpenJFX will find its GitHub
> >>>> repository, it would also seem to be the most logical place to invite
> >>>> people into the community and join our discussions.
> >>>>
> >>>> After all, growing and maintaining a community is fundamental for
> >>>> every open-source project to remain relevant.
> >>>>
> >>>> * https://github.blog/2021-08-17-github-discussions-out-of-beta <
> >> https://github.blog/2021-08-17-github-discussions-out-of-beta>
> >>
>
>