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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Iosevka Fixed SS16"">Thank you for clarification!<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Iosevka Fixed SS16""><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Iosevka Fixed SS16"">I just want to mention that here we are straying into what looks like a parallel discussion about skins (nothing wrong about it!).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Iosevka Fixed SS16""><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-left:.5in"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Iosevka Fixed SS16"">just the Skin part. This would likely be a big effort but perhaps it could be split into smaller tasks till the end goal is achieved.</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Iosevka Fixed SS16""><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Iosevka Fixed SS16""><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Iosevka Fixed SS16"">Could you please expand upon this? What parts should skins be split into?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Iosevka Fixed SS16""><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Iosevka Fixed SS16"">As it currently stands, Skins have two responsibilities - visual representation (the View in MVC paradigm) and handling of events, currently represented by the private behavior
implementation. In some sense, behaviors and skins are tightly coupled - it would be hard, in my opinion, to separate them without introducing large public API surface and consequently solidifying certain aspects of one particular implementation.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Iosevka Fixed SS16""><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Iosevka Fixed SS16"">As far as I can tell, the input map proposal addresses the low hanging fruit of simple customization like your case of unregistering all key mappings from the ScrollPane.
It is certainly not a call to a major redesign.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Iosevka Fixed SS16""><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Iosevka Fixed SS16"">Cheers,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Iosevka Fixed SS16"">-andy<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Iosevka Fixed SS16""><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt"><b><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">From:
</span></b><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">Pedro Duque Vieira <pedro.duquevieira@gmail.com><br>
<b>Date: </b>Sunday, October 15, 2023 at 05:11<br>
<b>To: </b>Andy Goryachev <andy.goryachev@oracle.com><br>
<b>Cc: </b>openjfx-dev@openjdk.org <openjfx-dev@openjdk.org><br>
<b>Subject: </b>[External] : Re: [Request for Comments] Behavior / InputMap<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">Hi Andy,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">Sorry for the late reply but unfortunately I didn't have time to respond to you earlier.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">Yes, you're right, Swing did allow for easier extension of controls' themes and you did see people coming up with new theme libraries that overwrote Controls appearance/behavior through code.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">I think the main issue with Skins being difficult to extend is that they're taking on too much responsibility. They do both the View and Controller part of the Controls (the model being the part that developers
interact with). When I talk about MVC here I mean it in a loose way, I'm referring to any and all the MVC like patterns. If for instance there was a clear class, in the Skin architecture, that just took care of how a Control is displayed, and nothing else,
it would be easier to overwrite, for example, how the Control is displayed and hence override Skins.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-family:"Iosevka Fixed SS16"">What are the missing APIs in Skins that we can add to simplify extension of skins?</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt"><o:p></o:p></span></li></ul>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Iosevka Fixed SS16"">I think, as I said above, Skins would have to have a different architecture. IMHO, their responsibilities would likely have to be split into different classes each with a smaller
set of concerns. I'm not talking about changing the whole Control architecture, just the Skin part. This would likely be a big effort but perhaps it could be split into smaller tasks till the end goal is achieved.</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<span style="font-family:"Iosevka Fixed SS16"">Would this proposal (BehaviorBase + InputMap) prevent us from moving forward?</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt"><o:p></o:p></span></li></ul>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Iosevka Fixed SS16"">Likely no.</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Iosevka Fixed SS16"">BTW, in the past I already had the need for this API (InputMap) for an application I was developing that's now in production. To do what I needed I had to call on private methods
using reflection, etc, since there's no public API to achieve this yet. </span><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Iosevka Fixed SS16"">My use case was that I was creating a custom control, "inside" that control I used a ScrollPane but ScrollPane has a bunch of default key mappings, like SPACE, PAGE_UP, PAGE_DOWN,
HOME that when pressed already do predefined things. I needed to remove those key mappings as in this application those keys were already meant to do something else other than what the default JavaFX ScrollPane does with them.</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Iosevka Fixed SS16"">Thnaks. Kind regards,</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">On Mon, Oct 9, 2023 at 7:38 PM Andy Goryachev <<a href="mailto:andy.goryachev@oracle.com">andy.goryachev@oracle.com</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Iosevka Fixed SS16"">Thank you for the feedback!</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Iosevka Fixed SS16""> </span><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Iosevka Fixed SS16"">You are right: even though Skins are public classes now, they are very difficult to extend – at least, much more
difficult that Swing UIs. It’s a source of constant discussions within the team – how much of it should be made public (protected) to allow for extension vs. how much of it should be hidden as implementation detail to minimize the API surface and allow for
evolution. While opening it all up might alleviate developers’ pain when extending, it poses a great(er) danger of introducing of all sorts of compatibility issues with respect to bug fixes and other changes.</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Iosevka Fixed SS16""> </span><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Iosevka Fixed SS16"">If we speak about extending skins specifically, a good question might be: what exactly is missing? Which APIs do
we need to enable easier extension of skins?</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Iosevka Fixed SS16""> </span><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Iosevka Fixed SS16"">One thing I would like to clarify is that the Behavior / InputMap proposal is not about extending skins. It is also
not about making the concrete behaviors public (a task which is probably as large as adding missing public APIs to skins).</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Iosevka Fixed SS16""> </span><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Iosevka Fixed SS16"">The main goal is to allow for extending and slightly modifying the behavior – like altering the way navigation works
in a text control, or adding a new key binding. As a result, the overall proposal is smaller than it could be.</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Iosevka Fixed SS16""> </span><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Iosevka Fixed SS16"">Having said that, nothing prevents us from exploring options to open up skins, or making behaviors public.</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Iosevka Fixed SS16""> </span><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Iosevka Fixed SS16"">To summarize:</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<li class="m-5021484268175409460msolistparagraph" style="mso-list:l0 level1 lfo3">
<span style="font-family:"Iosevka Fixed SS16"">What are the missing APIs in Skins that we can add to simplify extension of skins?</span><o:p></o:p></li><li class="m-5021484268175409460msolistparagraph" style="mso-list:l0 level1 lfo3">
<span style="font-family:"Iosevka Fixed SS16"">Would this proposal (BehaviorBase + InputMap) prevent us from moving forward?</span><o:p></o:p></li></ul>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Iosevka Fixed SS16""> </span><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Iosevka Fixed SS16"">What do you think?</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Iosevka Fixed SS16""> </span><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Iosevka Fixed SS16"">-andy</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Iosevka Fixed SS16""> </span><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Iosevka Fixed SS16""> </span><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Iosevka Fixed SS16""> </span><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt"><b><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">From:
</span></b><span style="font-size:12.0pt;color:black">openjfx-dev <<a href="mailto:openjfx-dev-retn@openjdk.org" target="_blank">openjfx-dev-retn@openjdk.org</a>> on behalf of Pedro Duque Vieira <<a href="mailto:pedro.duquevieira@gmail.com" target="_blank">pedro.duquevieira@gmail.com</a>><br>
<b>Date: </b>Saturday, October 7, 2023 at 14:05<br>
<b>To: </b><a href="mailto:openjfx-dev@openjdk.org" target="_blank">openjfx-dev@openjdk.org</a> <<a href="mailto:openjfx-dev@openjdk.org" target="_blank">openjfx-dev@openjdk.org</a>><br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: [Request for Comments] Behavior / InputMap</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">I second the opinions of others that JavaFX is too closed which, I think, hinders the work of library and app developers.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">I wonder if the reasons that were used to make this design decision back when JavaFX was being created still hold true. Back in the beginning there
were more developers involved in developing JavaFX, significant features were added at a fast pace so the fact that it was closed wasn't such a big drawback as things were changing quickly and missing features that were spotted could be added relatively quick.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">Commenting more specifically on your question... I think Skins could benefit generally from being easier to extend. The promise of skins is that you
could easily replace a control behavior and visuals without changing its model (the model being the part of the control that developers usually interact with) but the problem is that the JavaFX SDK control's skins are very difficult to extend. Say, if you
only want to add a specific visual feature (something that CSS can't do) it takes a significant effort.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">What you usually see is that developers opt to create completely new controls rather than just new skins.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">My attempt at providing new skins for existing javafx sdk controls is here: <a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/github.com/dukke/FXSkins__;!!ACWV5N9M2RV99hQ!KEGCkXgeKFVmcORYZZitJOe2wS_s5IdvWHuf9GfRNFkcJWLB1VYNmSwaSO-a_UsIx4HqSa9JYfNU-F1rnEUMVGJOrILwwVs$" target="_blank">https://github.com/dukke/FXSkins</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">Still it required quite a bit of effort.. at least more than it could ideally take (I think).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">The advantage of this kind of approach (providing new Skins) and the library I created "FXSkins" is that you can enhance the controls of your existing
app very easily by setting new skins in the CSS stylesheet. You won't need to change anything directly in the code.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">Regarding the current state of the JavaFX SDK Skins, there isn't a clear MVC separation, the skin does the Controller and View part at the same time.
Perhaps ideally there would be a clear View part that could easily be extended to add different advanced visuals to the control (by advanced I mean, anything that can't be done with CSS). And then perhaps also the Behavior part where you can easily change
the control's functionality. I remember at some point Richard Bair saying that it was a goal to make Behaviors public.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"> <o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">Thanks!<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span class="m-5021484268175409460gmailsignatureprefix"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">--
</span></span><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">Pedro Duque Vieira -
<a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.pixelduke.com__;!!ACWV5N9M2RV99hQ!KEGCkXgeKFVmcORYZZitJOe2wS_s5IdvWHuf9GfRNFkcJWLB1VYNmSwaSO-a_UsIx4HqSa9JYfNU-F1rnEUMVGJO6wtkRnc$" target="_blank">
https://www.pixelduke.com</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span class="gmailsignatureprefix"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">--
</span></span><span style="font-size:11.0pt"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt">Pedro Duque Vieira - <a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.pixelduke.com__;!!ACWV5N9M2RV99hQ!KEGCkXgeKFVmcORYZZitJOe2wS_s5IdvWHuf9GfRNFkcJWLB1VYNmSwaSO-a_UsIx4HqSa9JYfNU-F1rnEUMVGJO6wtkRnc$" target="_blank">
https://www.pixelduke.com</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
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