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Thanks for the taking the time to respond. On 24/02/2026 00: 32, Andy Goryachev wrote: > What trade off are you making here? It seems we're trading a small memory gain for more CPU use (extra indirection, walking a list linearly to find the</div>
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<p>Thanks for the taking the time to respond.<br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 24/02/2026 00:32, Andy Goryachev
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CY8PR10MB72654E6BACA208E59A4F12A8E577A@CY8PR10MB7265.namprd10.prod.outlook.com">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
<p style="direction: ltr; margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;"><span
style="font-family: "Iosevka Fixed SS16", Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">>
What trade off are you making here? It seems we're trading a
small memory gain for more CPU use (extra indirection, walking
a list linearly to find the correct property on each
use/access VS no indirection, no list walking).</span></p>
<div
style="direction: ltr; font-family: "Iosevka Fixed SS16", Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
<br>
</div>
<div
style="direction: ltr; font-family: "Iosevka Fixed SS16", Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
You are right. The tradeoff is non-zero memory gain (a few
megabytes, to the tune of maybe 5% of total heap size) at the
cost of extra CPU cycles. The rationale is that even though we
consume extra CPU, it's much less noticeable because of the
cache-friendly implementation and non-zero positive impact on
garbage collector (less memory to scan).</div>
</blockquote>
<p>What is more cache friendly about adding several extra
indirections to get to a property's value? Let me see:</p>
<p>Before:</p>
<p>- isFocusTraversable(): get property -> get value</p>
<p>After:</p>
<p>- isFocusTraversable(): get fast map -> get key ArrayList
-> get internal array -> get value ArrayList -> get
internal array -> get property -> get value</p>
<p>For the garbage collector, the properties are likely going to be
in an area of the GC collector that will be scanned rarely, and
not part of the frequent scans for young objects. I don't think we
can generally conclude that having less memory used will have an
overall positive impact on the GC here. The properties will be
seen as long-lived by the GC, and will reside in an area only
scanned rarely, which has very little impact on the performance of
most GC implementations. <br>
</p>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CY8PR10MB72654E6BACA208E59A4F12A8E577A@CY8PR10MB7265.namprd10.prod.outlook.com">
<div
style="direction: ltr; font-family: "Iosevka Fixed SS16", Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
<br>
</div>
<div
style="direction: ltr; font-family: "Iosevka Fixed SS16", Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
<br>
</div>
<p style="direction: ltr; margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;"><span
style="font-family: "Iosevka Fixed SS16", Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">>
Are the resource constrained platforms you named generally
memory or CPU constrained?</span></p>
<div
style="direction: ltr; font-family: "Iosevka Fixed SS16", Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
<br>
</div>
<div
style="direction: ltr; font-family: "Iosevka Fixed SS16", Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
I asked Gluon for some feedback on iOS/Android. However, my
previous experience with a large trading application says that
memory footprint savings outweighs the CPU cycles, so I would
imagine we'll get a net gain even on the desktop.</div>
</blockquote>
<p>That's anecdotal, and will depend on the type of application,
platform, CPU cores available, etc. So while you may be correct
for your trading application, it may be completely the opposite
for a task tracking application. In general, memory use is hardly
a factor for most applications; most Java apps don't even bother
to limit the heap, yet complain about several GB's of memory use
when they have a retained size of less than half a GB. Not that
I'm not in favor of reducing memory footprint, but I seriously
wonder if there is much to gain at the property level.<br>
</p>
<p><br>
</p>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CY8PR10MB72654E6BACA208E59A4F12A8E577A@CY8PR10MB7265.namprd10.prod.outlook.com">
<div
style="direction: ltr; font-family: "Iosevka Fixed SS16", Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
<br>
</div>
<div
style="direction: ltr; font-family: "Iosevka Fixed SS16", Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
<br>
</div>
<p style="direction: ltr; margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;"><span
style="font-family: "Iosevka Fixed SS16", Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">>
Have you investigated a breakdown of JavaFX memory use, and
did the amount of memory used by properties come out on top
here?</span></p>
<div
style="direction: ltr; font-family: "Iosevka Fixed SS16", Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
<br>
</div>
<div
style="direction: ltr; font-family: "Iosevka Fixed SS16", Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
There is some statistics provided in <a
href="https://github.com/andy-goryachev-oracle/Test/blob/main/doc/Experiments/NodeProperties.md"
data-outlook-id="9074576b-7c43-438e-a9d5-ea05048e66cd"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">
https://github.com/andy-goryachev-oracle/Test/blob/main/doc/Experiments/NodeProperties.md</a> ,
please take a look.</div>
</blockquote>
I took a look, but could only find statistics about properties. I
didn't see a breakdown of general JavaFX memory use (the other 95%)
to see if properties are the lowest hanging fruit.<br>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CY8PR10MB72654E6BACA208E59A4F12A8E577A@CY8PR10MB7265.namprd10.prod.outlook.com">
<div
style="direction: ltr; font-family: "Iosevka Fixed SS16", Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
<br>
</div>
<div
style="direction: ltr; font-family: "Iosevka Fixed SS16", Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
<br>
</div>
<p style="direction: ltr; margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;"><span
style="font-family: "Iosevka Fixed SS16", Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">>
Would the gains you made here become irrelevant or less
relevant with Compact Object Headers [<a
href="https://openjdk.org/jeps/519"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
data-outlook-id="6cb8835d-b6f1-4268-bdc5-acb387ef1fbb"
style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://openjdk.org/jeps/519</a>]</span></p>
<div
style="direction: ltr; font-family: "Iosevka Fixed SS16", Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
<br>
</div>
<div
style="direction: ltr; font-family: "Iosevka Fixed SS16", Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
Compact Object Headers are almost irrelevant here - the stats
that were collected count the number of pointers saved (assumed
8 bytes per pointer on 64 bit). The stats ignore any other
possible savings.</div>
</blockquote>
<p>Compact Object Headers is especially relevant here as you're
optimizing small objects (properties) on which JEP519 offers the
most relative gain. Enabling it may reduce the 5% memory gain you
measured to a smaller margin, which impacts the rationale for this
change.</p>
<p>Furthermore, if we're talking about saving memory, I think we can
assume we're using small heaps (less than 32 GB). In that case,
Hotspot will use 4 bytes per pointer (compressed OOPs) not 8, so
your assumption of 8 bytes per pointer will be incorrect in the
vast majority of JavaFX cases.<br>
</p>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CY8PR10MB72654E6BACA208E59A4F12A8E577A@CY8PR10MB7265.namprd10.prod.outlook.com">
<div
style="direction: ltr; font-family: "Iosevka Fixed SS16", Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
<br>
</div>
<div
style="direction: ltr; font-family: "Iosevka Fixed SS16", Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
<br>
</div>
<p style="direction: ltr; margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;"><span
style="font-family: "Iosevka Fixed SS16", Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">>
I think the property look-up system cannot reasonably be List
(FastMap despite its name is a List). Converting this to a map
however is likely to require a small object (like Map.Entry)
which will further reduce any gains you made here I think.</span></p>
<div
style="direction: ltr; font-family: "Iosevka Fixed SS16", Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
<br>
</div>
<div
style="direction: ltr; font-family: "Iosevka Fixed SS16", Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
The FastMap is a map-like (key-value) storage, even though it's
implemented as an array. There is a debate as to what would the
most efficient implementation entail (a hashmap, one array, or
two arrays like the POC currently uses). The idea is not to put
<b>all</b> the properties into the container, but only the
rarely used ones, with the end result of having a few (less than
4-6, say). This makes the object small and cache-friendly,
which further speeds up the access.</div>
</blockquote>
<p>I'm aware of the intentions to only put the rarely used
properties there. What is rarely used will depend on the
application. How many properties will end up being stored there
also depends on the application. What if the app does need
several of these properties and this structure grows to contain
20-30 properties?<br>
</p>
<p>Currently your proposal wants to store these rarely used
properties in an O(n) structure, whereas a hash based solutions
are O(1), and where doing nothing is even faster as there is no
map at all.<br>
</p>
<p>So although your map implementation may be small and cache
friendly (that last point being debatable, see indirection count),
it degrades badly when there are more than the predicted amount of
properties, and requires many more indirections than the base case
of doing nothing.</p>
<p>There is talk about not having to do an expensive `hashCode` call
in your proposal. First, `hashCode` is really cheap for objects
not implementing equality as it falls back on the
Object#hashCode. I believe this is the case for properties. Even
if it isn't the case, you could use the identity hash code here
(the `==` equivalent in the hashing world).<br>
</p>
<p>However that "expensive" call is what enables the O(1) lookup of
the value you are interested in, which can be truly cache friendly
with the right structure (array based open addressed map).<br>
</p>
<p>--John<br>
</p>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:CY8PR10MB72654E6BACA208E59A4F12A8E577A@CY8PR10MB7265.namprd10.prod.outlook.com">
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<div
style="direction: ltr; font-family: "Iosevka Fixed SS16", Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
Thanks!</div>
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<br>
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<div
style="direction: ltr; font-family: "Iosevka Fixed SS16", Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
-andy</div>
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<br>
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<div id="mail-editor-reference-message-container">
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style="direction: ltr;">
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<div class="ms-outlook-mobile-reference-message skipProofing"
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<b>From: </b>openjfx-dev <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:openjfx-dev-retn@openjdk.org"><openjfx-dev-retn@openjdk.org></a>
on behalf of John Hendrikx <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:john.hendrikx@gmail.com"><john.hendrikx@gmail.com></a><br>
<b>Date: </b>Thursday, February 19, 2026 at 15:28<br>
<b>To: </b><a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:openjfx-dev@openjdk.org">openjfx-dev@openjdk.org</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:openjfx-dev@openjdk.org"><openjfx-dev@openjdk.org></a><br>
<b>Subject: </b>Re: Experiment: Node properties<br>
<br>
</div>
<p class="ms-outlook-mobile-reference-message skipProofing"><br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 04/02/2026 22:17, Andy Goryachev
wrote:</div>
<blockquote>
<div class="ms-outlook-mobile-reference-message skipProofing"
style="direction: ltr; font-family: "Iosevka Fixed SS16", Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
I would like to share the results of a little experiment
involving optimization of storage of Node properties. The
basic idea is to create a compact fast map-like container to
hold the rarely instantiated properties in order to reduce
the application memory footprint.</div>
<div class="ms-outlook-mobile-reference-message skipProofing"
style="direction: ltr; font-family: "Iosevka Fixed SS16", Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
<br>
</div>
<div class="ms-outlook-mobile-reference-message skipProofing"
style="direction: ltr; font-family: "Iosevka Fixed SS16", Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
The savings are not overwhelming, but not exactly zero. I
would imagine this optimization might be more interesting in
any resource constrained environment such as Android / iOS /
RaspberryPi. Please refer to [0] for the details.</div>
</blockquote>
<p class="ms-outlook-mobile-reference-message skipProofing">What
trade off are you making here? It seems we're trading a small
memory gain for more CPU use (extra indirection, walking a
list linearly to find the correct property on each use/access
VS no indirection, no list walking).</p>
<p class="ms-outlook-mobile-reference-message skipProofing">Are
the resource constrained platforms you named generally memory
or CPU constrained?</p>
<p class="ms-outlook-mobile-reference-message skipProofing">Have
you investigated a breakdown of JavaFX memory use, and did the
amount of memory used by properties come out on top here?</p>
<p class="ms-outlook-mobile-reference-message skipProofing">Would
the gains you made here become irrelevant or less relevant
with Compact Object Headers [<a
href="https://openjdk.org/jeps/519"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
data-outlook-id="6cb8835d-b6f1-4268-bdc5-acb387ef1fbb"
style="margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px;"
moz-do-not-send="true">https://openjdk.org/jeps/519</a>]</p>
<p class="ms-outlook-mobile-reference-message skipProofing"><br>
</p>
<blockquote>
<div class="ms-outlook-mobile-reference-message skipProofing"
style="direction: ltr; font-family: "Iosevka Fixed SS16", Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
<br>
</div>
<div class="ms-outlook-mobile-reference-message skipProofing"
style="direction: ltr; font-family: "Iosevka Fixed SS16", Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
I encourage you to try it with your application, to see
whether you notice any change in memory consumption and/or
performance. Let me know what you think!</div>
</blockquote>
<p class="ms-outlook-mobile-reference-message skipProofing">I
like the idea, but I wonder if there really is much to gain
here, and whether those gains will hold up with future Java
improvements.</p>
<p class="ms-outlook-mobile-reference-message skipProofing">I
think the property look-up system cannot reasonably be List
(FastMap despite its name is a List). Converting this to a map
however is likely to require a small object (like Map.Entry)
which will further reduce any gains you made here I think.</p>
<p class="ms-outlook-mobile-reference-message skipProofing">--John</p>
<blockquote>
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Cheers,</div>
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-andy</div>
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<b>References</b></div>
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[0] <a
href="https://github.com/andy-goryachev-oracle/Test/blob/main/doc/Experiments/NodeProperties.md"
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https://github.com/andy-goryachev-oracle/Test/blob/main/doc/Experiments/NodeProperties.md</a></div>
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