Migrate to Mailing Lists to Modern Forum Software

Mon Dec 28 17:53:38 UTC 2020

I just noticed that Discourse's quote feature is also rather advanced. See for
example [1]:
That message quotes a piece of a previous message. Within the message you can
either expand the complete previous message where the quote came from (which
then highlights the quoted piece within the text), or jump to the message where
the quote came from.

[1] https://meta.discourse.org/t/allow-only-x-consecutive-replies-in-the-same-topic/69756/20

> 
> In this complete discussion it is important to consider from which standpoint
> you are discussing:
> There are probably two extrema:
> - OpenJDK contributors
> - "Drive-by" visitors / contributors
> 
> I would assume most of the replies opposing mailing list alternatives come from
> OpenJDK contributors:
> - they are familiar with mailing lists
> - have been subscribed for a long time
> - are using their company e-mail address (which is public)
> - use an e-mail client which supports e-mail threads; or have the respective
>   add-ons adding support for that
> 
> Personally I would consider myself to come from the second category, the
> "drive-by" visitor (or rather in general interested in the OpenJDK), and
> I would assume some of the users here arguing for a mailing list alternative
> come from the same or a similar category. The main characteristics are:
> - they are not familiar with the concept of mailing lists
> - they have not been subscriped to the mailing list yet
> (- they do not have a company e-mail address, or they do not want to write
>   from that)
> - their e-mail client and/or e-mail provider does not support threads by
>   default
> - they do not have their e-mail client set up to write in plain text, and
>   their client is not wrapping after X characters automatically
> 
> Keep in mind that most subscribers are likely OpenJDK contributors and therefore
> whatever image you will get from this discussion is heavily biased. This might
> be acceptable if you are not actively aiming for new contributors from outside,
> but I hope that is not the case.
> 
> From the list above some of the pain points might already be obvious, but I will
> sumarize them anyways:
> - https://mail.openjdk.java.net/mailman/listinfo provides no search interface;
>   for someone unfamiliar with mailing lists, finding a previous message is
>   pretty difficult
> - Mailing lists make it difficult to respond to past discussions if you were
>   not subscribed back then
> - Viewing discussion threads is difficult if your client does not support it
>   natively
>   Keep in mind that the user might just want to ask a single question, telling
>   them to install add-on X, which might then not work or require extra
>   configuration, is rather discouraging.
> - Without company e-mail address you might not want your private e-mail address
>   to become public. One reason might be because mailing lists are for sure a
>   great source for spam mail authors. Another might be that you want to hide
>   your name from Open Source projects (further reading [0]).
>   Creating a separate e-mail address is cumbersome, and the mailing list might
>   even block your e-mail address or domain for whatever spam-related reasons.
> - When you subscribe to a mailing list you receive all mails even though you
>   might only be interested in one specific topic. Having to configure mail
>   filters just to receive updates for one single message really does not justify
>   this trouble.
> - Responding to messages on mailing lists can be confusing. For my first message
>   on the mailing lists by accident I only responded to the person answering me,
>   but not to the mailing list.
> 
> It is also not surprising that a related general Stack Exchange question ([1])
> exists; reading the comments under the question and answers is really worth it.
> 
> Threaded discussions (other than ones being limited to a single thread level)
> can also have their disadvantages; [2] might be interesting to read.
> For example here my response would fit to anyone arguing against a mailing
> list change, it would not have mattered to whom I have responded.
> 
> As side notes: Since it has been mentioned before; Slack *does* support
> threads, but only one level deep. (Though I am not advocating for using
> Slack instead)
> Similarly Discourse allows replying [3] and creating a new topic as reply [4].
> 
> If you still decide that you need a mailing list, then could you please
> at least investigate switching to a more modern web interface for it,
> e.g. HyperKitty ([5])?
> 
> And since this discussion has already drifted towards a GitHub critique:
> I don't really understand why you have chosen GitHub over a self-hosted
> GitLab instance (you likely have your reasons):
> - You are complaining about missing threads, yet GitLab has a Threads feature [6]
> - You are censoring any GitHub comment from someone who has not signed the OpenJDK
>   Terms of Use. This is really discouraging.
>   A self-hosted GitLab instance where you can control who can create an
>   account would likely have been better suited. Then it would have been
>   clearer that you do not accept comments from external users.
> 
> In general there are multiple things which are quite discouraging for
> someone who wants to contribute to the OpenJDK. But that is a different
> topic and would make this discussion drift off-topic.
> 
> Kind regards
> 
> [0] https://medium.com/@fommil/hide-your-real-name-in-open-source-3d67e74a8c56
> [1] https://softwareengineering.stackexchange.com/questions/71148/why-do-programmers-still-use-mailing-lists
> [2] https://blog.codinghorror.com/web-discussions-flat-by-design/
> [3] https://meta.discourse.org/t/discourse-new-user-guide/96331#replying
> [4] https://meta.discourse.org/t/how-to-reply-as-topic/59891/8
> [5] https://docs.mailman3.org/projects/hyperkitty/en/latest/
> [6] https://docs.gitlab.com/ee/user/discussions/