Migrate to Mailing Lists to Modern Forum Software

Tue Dec 29 03:22:06 UTC 2020

Flarum (https://flarum.org/) also provides a similar quoting facility.

On Mon, 28 Dec 2020 at 23:26, <
some-java-user-99206970363698485155 at vodafonemail.de> wrote:

> I just noticed that Discourse's quote feature is also rather advanced. See
> for
> example [1]:
> That message quotes a piece of a previous message. Within the message you
> can
> either expand the complete previous message where the quote came from
> (which
> then highlights the quoted piece within the text), or jump to the message
> where
> the quote came from.
>
> [1]
> https://meta.discourse.org/t/allow-only-x-consecutive-replies-in-the-same-topic/69756/20
>
> >
> > In this complete discussion it is important to consider from which
> standpoint
> > you are discussing:
> > There are probably two extrema:
> > - OpenJDK contributors
> > - "Drive-by" visitors / contributors
> >
> > I would assume most of the replies opposing mailing list alternatives
> come from
> > OpenJDK contributors:
> > - they are familiar with mailing lists
> > - have been subscribed for a long time
> > - are using their company e-mail address (which is public)
> > - use an e-mail client which supports e-mail threads; or have the
> respective
> >   add-ons adding support for that
> >
> > Personally I would consider myself to come from the second category, the
> > "drive-by" visitor (or rather in general interested in the OpenJDK), and
> > I would assume some of the users here arguing for a mailing list
> alternative
> > come from the same or a similar category. The main characteristics are:
> > - they are not familiar with the concept of mailing lists
> > - they have not been subscriped to the mailing list yet
> > (- they do not have a company e-mail address, or they do not want to
> write
> >   from that)
> > - their e-mail client and/or e-mail provider does not support threads by
> >   default
> > - they do not have their e-mail client set up to write in plain text, and
> >   their client is not wrapping after X characters automatically
> >
> > Keep in mind that most subscribers are likely OpenJDK contributors and
> therefore
> > whatever image you will get from this discussion is heavily biased. This
> might
> > be acceptable if you are not actively aiming for new contributors from
> outside,
> > but I hope that is not the case.
> >
> > From the list above some of the pain points might already be obvious,
> but I will
> > sumarize them anyways:
> > - https://mail.openjdk.java.net/mailman/listinfo provides no search
> interface;
> >   for someone unfamiliar with mailing lists, finding a previous message
> is
> >   pretty difficult
> > - Mailing lists make it difficult to respond to past discussions if you
> were
> >   not subscribed back then
> > - Viewing discussion threads is difficult if your client does not
> support it
> >   natively
> >   Keep in mind that the user might just want to ask a single question,
> telling
> >   them to install add-on X, which might then not work or require extra
> >   configuration, is rather discouraging.
> > - Without company e-mail address you might not want your private e-mail
> address
> >   to become public. One reason might be because mailing lists are for
> sure a
> >   great source for spam mail authors. Another might be that you want to
> hide
> >   your name from Open Source projects (further reading [0]).
> >   Creating a separate e-mail address is cumbersome, and the mailing list
> might
> >   even block your e-mail address or domain for whatever spam-related
> reasons.
> > - When you subscribe to a mailing list you receive all mails even though
> you
> >   might only be interested in one specific topic. Having to configure
> mail
> >   filters just to receive updates for one single message really does not
> justify
> >   this trouble.
> > - Responding to messages on mailing lists can be confusing. For my first
> message
> >   on the mailing lists by accident I only responded to the person
> answering me,
> >   but not to the mailing list.
> >
> > It is also not surprising that a related general Stack Exchange question
> ([1])
> > exists; reading the comments under the question and answers is really
> worth it.
> >
> > Threaded discussions (other than ones being limited to a single thread
> level)
> > can also have their disadvantages; [2] might be interesting to read.
> > For example here my response would fit to anyone arguing against a
> mailing
> > list change, it would not have mattered to whom I have responded.
> >
> > As side notes: Since it has been mentioned before; Slack *does* support
> > threads, but only one level deep. (Though I am not advocating for using
> > Slack instead)
> > Similarly Discourse allows replying [3] and creating a new topic as
> reply [4].
> >
> > If you still decide that you need a mailing list, then could you please
> > at least investigate switching to a more modern web interface for it,
> > e.g. HyperKitty ([5])?
> >
> > And since this discussion has already drifted towards a GitHub critique:
> > I don't really understand why you have chosen GitHub over a self-hosted
> > GitLab instance (you likely have your reasons):
> > - You are complaining about missing threads, yet GitLab has a Threads
> feature [6]
> > - You are censoring any GitHub comment from someone who has not signed
> the OpenJDK
> >   Terms of Use. This is really discouraging.
> >   A self-hosted GitLab instance where you can control who can create an
> >   account would likely have been better suited. Then it would have been
> >   clearer that you do not accept comments from external users.
> >
> > In general there are multiple things which are quite discouraging for
> > someone who wants to contribute to the OpenJDK. But that is a different
> > topic and would make this discussion drift off-topic.
> >
> > Kind regards
> >
> > [0]
> https://medium.com/@fommil/hide-your-real-name-in-open-source-3d67e74a8c56
> > [1]
> https://softwareengineering.stackexchange.com/questions/71148/why-do-programmers-still-use-mailing-lists
> > [2] https://blog.codinghorror.com/web-discussions-flat-by-design/
> > [3] https://meta.discourse.org/t/discourse-new-user-guide/96331#replying
> > [4] https://meta.discourse.org/t/how-to-reply-as-topic/59891/8
> > [5] https://docs.mailman3.org/projects/hyperkitty/en/latest/
> > [6] https://docs.gitlab.com/ee/user/discussions/
>