Moving discussions to GitHub? (Philip Race)

[Johan Vos]

Hi,

I see the value of Github Discussions, but I also see the value of the
mailinglists we are currently using. We have to realise though that this
particular list is about the *development* of OpenJFX, not about *using*
OpenJFX. Therefore, I believe it is ok to be more formal here, and a number
of things that make Github discussions more light-weight might imho
decrease productivity.

But on the other hand, I also agree that the entry level is very high for
new developers. Years ago, I advocated for a separate "openjfx-discuss"
mailinglist where we would have more informal discussions and brainstorms.
We have that list but it's not frequently used. I was probably wrong in
suggesting this, as the style and formalism of the mailinglists does not
match with discussions amongst developers.
The idea of what I had for an "openjfx-discuss" mailinglist might work
better on Github Discussions. It would be a low-level entry point where new
ideas can be tossed. Personally, I don't see what's wrong with the
subscribe page (I love it when technology from the eighties is still
working :) ) but realistically, yes, it might turn away developers who
might have great ideas and time.

In short: I'm +1 on keeping openjfx-dev to the current mailinglist, but I
think it could be good if we move openjfx-discuss to a github discussion.

- Johan


On Fri, Aug 20, 2021 at 8:29 AM Sebastian Stenzel <
sebastian.stenzel at gmail.com> wrote:

> I am among the younger people here on the mailing lists (at least I think
> so) and I can very much relate to what Michael suggests. So here is my
> personal answer to the _why_ question:
>
> Mailing lists create an enormous barrier to external devs like myself who
> are willing to contribute:
> * Signing up to a means of the 80s feels just strange
> * Signing up to _any_ additional tool is deterring (same holds true for
> JBS), especially when you're used to low-threshold contributions to other
> projects can be
> * Therefore, signing up feels like a liability that you may not want to
> commit to, if you merely want to express your support for a single comment
> * It can be hard to find the correct mailing list for the topic you want
> to discuss
> * You'll
>    * either receive digests and miss a topic you're interested in
>    * or dozens of additional mails each day, alienating people who just
> want to follow specific discussions
> * No proper formatting
> * No proper linking to code, issues, PRs, ...
> * Hard to track diverging discussions
> * Very hard to search - I basically need to use Google and restrict the
> search to some mail archive
> * Linking to different topics means you need to either quote the whole
> thing or link to an archive
>
> On the other hand I see one important argument against GitHub Discussions:
> We have no control over how Discussions will change in the future. Even if
> they seem suitable today, we can't tell if it may be necessary to switch to
> yet another tool in 5 years. Each time you switch, you strip connections to
> discussions that took place on the previous platform. Switching tools
> always comes with a commitment to it and bears this risk.
>
> That said, I agree that this may not be something for OpenJFX to decide
> for its own. Maybe this discussion belongs on the skara mailing list (did I
> mention that it's hard to find the right mailing list, a topic belongs to?)
> Furthermore, changing a process is never easy and will scare people used to
> the status quo, especially when they've grown familiar with the old process
> over decades. I've seen this in companies many times. If there is no
> pressure to change, better tooling is not a strong enough argument to
> change processes.
>
>
> > On 20. Aug 2021, at 03:39, openjfx-dev-request at openjdk.java.net wrote:
> >
> > From: Philip Race <philip.race at oracle.com <mailto:philip.race at oracle.com
> >>
> > Subject: Re: Moving discussions to GitHub?
> > Date: 20. August 2021 at 03:39:04 CEST
> > To: Michael Strauß <michaelstrau2 at gmail.com <mailto:
> michaelstrau2 at gmail.com>>, "openjfx-dev at openjdk.java.net <mailto:
> openjfx-dev at openjdk.java.net> List" <openjfx-dev at openjdk.java.net <mailto:
> openjfx-dev at openjdk.java.net>>
> >
> >
> > I am not sure that openjfx as an openjdk sponsored project can
> unilaterally decide this.
> > Nor sure that it makes sense either to be different.
> > And I've not felt the same disconnection you cite or have any idea why
> > this would be better or even match how we work.
> >
> >
> > -phil.
> >
> > On 8/19/21 5:50 PM, Michael Strauß wrote:
> >> With the GitHub Discussions feature now out of beta*, I'd like to
> >> start a conversation on whether it could be a good idea for the
> >> OpenJFX project to embrace it as the primary place to discuss and
> >> interact with the broader community.
> >>
> >> While I understand that mailing lists have a long tradition with
> >> OpenJDK projects, I feel that they are not a great tool for building
> >> and maintaining a community. It's pretty hard to search archived mails
> >> and find relevant information or past discussions. Sure, you can do
> >> it, but it's not very inviting and accessible.
> >>
> >> It also seems to me that the mailing list is very disconnected from
> >> the people actually using OpenJFX. Since most people already are on
> >> GitHub, and most people interested in OpenJFX will find its GitHub
> >> repository, it would also seem to be the most logical place to invite
> >> people into the community and join our discussions.
> >>
> >> After all, growing and maintaining a community is fundamental for
> >> every open-source project to remain relevant.
> >>
> >> * https://github.blog/2021-08-17-github-discussions-out-of-beta <
> https://github.blog/2021-08-17-github-discussions-out-of-beta>
>