Moving discussions to GitHub?

Fri Aug 20 14:54:12 UTC 2021

Interesting idea about moving just the openjfx-discuss list to GitHub 
discussions, although even that will run into some resistance. Enabling 
any GitHub feature as part of the openjdk organization needs buy-in from 
the the larger openjdk community, and probably from the OpenJDK Project 
Lead.

-- Kevin

On 8/20/2021 7:30 AM, Johan Vos wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I see the value of Github Discussions, but I also see the value of the
> mailinglists we are currently using. We have to realise though that this
> particular list is about the *development* of OpenJFX, not about *using*
> OpenJFX. Therefore, I believe it is ok to be more formal here, and a number
> of things that make Github discussions more light-weight might imho
> decrease productivity.
>
> But on the other hand, I also agree that the entry level is very high for
> new developers. Years ago, I advocated for a separate "openjfx-discuss"
> mailinglist where we would have more informal discussions and brainstorms.
> We have that list but it's not frequently used. I was probably wrong in
> suggesting this, as the style and formalism of the mailinglists does not
> match with discussions amongst developers.
> The idea of what I had for an "openjfx-discuss" mailinglist might work
> better on Github Discussions. It would be a low-level entry point where new
> ideas can be tossed. Personally, I don't see what's wrong with the
> subscribe page (I love it when technology from the eighties is still
> working :) ) but realistically, yes, it might turn away developers who
> might have great ideas and time.
>
> In short: I'm +1 on keeping openjfx-dev to the current mailinglist, but I
> think it could be good if we move openjfx-discuss to a github discussion.
>
> - Johan
>
>
> On Fri, Aug 20, 2021 at 8:29 AM Sebastian Stenzel <
> sebastian.stenzel at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I am among the younger people here on the mailing lists (at least I think
>> so) and I can very much relate to what Michael suggests. So here is my
>> personal answer to the _why_ question:
>>
>> Mailing lists create an enormous barrier to external devs like myself who
>> are willing to contribute:
>> * Signing up to a means of the 80s feels just strange
>> * Signing up to _any_ additional tool is deterring (same holds true for
>> JBS), especially when you're used to low-threshold contributions to other
>> projects can be
>> * Therefore, signing up feels like a liability that you may not want to
>> commit to, if you merely want to express your support for a single comment
>> * It can be hard to find the correct mailing list for the topic you want
>> to discuss
>> * You'll
>>     * either receive digests and miss a topic you're interested in
>>     * or dozens of additional mails each day, alienating people who just
>> want to follow specific discussions
>> * No proper formatting
>> * No proper linking to code, issues, PRs, ...
>> * Hard to track diverging discussions
>> * Very hard to search - I basically need to use Google and restrict the
>> search to some mail archive
>> * Linking to different topics means you need to either quote the whole
>> thing or link to an archive
>>
>> On the other hand I see one important argument against GitHub Discussions:
>> We have no control over how Discussions will change in the future. Even if
>> they seem suitable today, we can't tell if it may be necessary to switch to
>> yet another tool in 5 years. Each time you switch, you strip connections to
>> discussions that took place on the previous platform. Switching tools
>> always comes with a commitment to it and bears this risk.
>>
>> That said, I agree that this may not be something for OpenJFX to decide
>> for its own. Maybe this discussion belongs on the skara mailing list (did I
>> mention that it's hard to find the right mailing list, a topic belongs to?)
>> Furthermore, changing a process is never easy and will scare people used to
>> the status quo, especially when they've grown familiar with the old process
>> over decades. I've seen this in companies many times. If there is no
>> pressure to change, better tooling is not a strong enough argument to
>> change processes.
>>
>>
>>> On 20. Aug 2021, at 03:39, openjfx-dev-request at openjdk.java.net wrote:
>>>
>>> From: Philip Race <philip.race at oracle.com <mailto:philip.race at oracle.com
>>> Subject: Re: Moving discussions to GitHub?
>>> Date: 20. August 2021 at 03:39:04 CEST
>>> To: Michael Strauß <michaelstrau2 at gmail.com <mailto:
>> michaelstrau2 at gmail.com>>, "openjfx-dev at openjdk.java.net <mailto:
>> openjfx-dev at openjdk.java.net> List" <openjfx-dev at openjdk.java.net <mailto:
>> openjfx-dev at openjdk.java.net>>
>>>
>>> I am not sure that openjfx as an openjdk sponsored project can
>> unilaterally decide this.
>>> Nor sure that it makes sense either to be different.
>>> And I've not felt the same disconnection you cite or have any idea why
>>> this would be better or even match how we work.
>>>
>>>
>>> -phil.
>>>
>>> On 8/19/21 5:50 PM, Michael Strauß wrote:
>>>> With the GitHub Discussions feature now out of beta*, I'd like to
>>>> start a conversation on whether it could be a good idea for the
>>>> OpenJFX project to embrace it as the primary place to discuss and
>>>> interact with the broader community.
>>>>
>>>> While I understand that mailing lists have a long tradition with
>>>> OpenJDK projects, I feel that they are not a great tool for building
>>>> and maintaining a community. It's pretty hard to search archived mails
>>>> and find relevant information or past discussions. Sure, you can do
>>>> it, but it's not very inviting and accessible.
>>>>
>>>> It also seems to me that the mailing list is very disconnected from
>>>> the people actually using OpenJFX. Since most people already are on
>>>> GitHub, and most people interested in OpenJFX will find its GitHub
>>>> repository, it would also seem to be the most logical place to invite
>>>> people into the community and join our discussions.
>>>>
>>>> After all, growing and maintaining a community is fundamental for
>>>> every open-source project to remain relevant.
>>>>
>>>> * https://github.blog/2021-08-17-github-discussions-out-of-beta <
>> https://github.blog/2021-08-17-github-discussions-out-of-beta>
>>